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BUSD: Dina Holder Deposition Transcript

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My opinion will be reserved until a later date. I wish to provide the transcript of Loma Vista teacher Dina Holder and allow readers to come to their own conclusions. Note, this is the non-confidential transcript.

If you prefer the actual document, please email me at mburk1010@gmail.com and I will send you the file.

1                  UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2                 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

3                             –oOo–

4

5   KEVIN PHELAN; CANEEL PHELAN; J.P.,
a minor, by and through his
6   guardian ad litem, KEVIN PHELAN,

7                          Plaintiffs,

8       vs.                                  No. C12-00465 LB

9   DINA HOLDER, LAURI JAMES and DOES
1-30,
10
Defendants.
11                                     /

12

13

14

15                   DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER

16                    Tuesday, December 4, 2012

17                           Pages 1-124

18

19

20
Taken before JANELL SOKOL, CSR, CRR
21             License No. C-3443, State of California

22

23
DIABLO VALLEY REPORTING SERVICES
24                  Certified Shorthand Reporters
2121 N. California Blvd., Suite 210
25                 Walnut Creek, California 94596
925-930-7388                       1

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1                            I N D E X

2   EXAMINATION BY:                                    PAGE

3       MR. BOLEY                                         5

4       MS. LEED                                        138

5

6                             –oOo–

7

8

9   THE CONFIDENTIAL PORTION OF THE TRANSCRIPT BEGINS ON PAGE
125 AND IS BOUND UNDER SEPARATE COVER.
10

11

12

13                         E X H I B I T S

14   NUMBER                                             PAGE

15                 (No exhibits were introduced.)

16

17                             –oOo–

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2

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1            BE IT REMEMBERED, that pursuant to Notice to the

2   respective parties, and on Tuesday, December 4, 2012,

3   commencing at the hour of 9:42 a.m. thereof, at the Law

4   Offices of HINTON ALFERT & KAHN LLP, 200 Pringle Avenue,

5   Suite 450, Walnut Creek, California, before me, JANELL

6   SOKOL, a Certified Shorthand Reporter, License No. C-3443,

7   State of California, there personally appeared:

8                          DINA HOLDER,

9   called as a witness on behalf of the plaintiffs, who, being

10   first duly sworn, was then and there examined and

11   interrogated as hereinafter set forth.

12                             –oOo–

13   APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

14   For the Plaintiffs:

15            PETER W. ALFERT, Attorney at Law
HINTON ALFERT & KAHN LLP
16            200 Pringle Avenue, Suite 450
Walnut Creek, California 94596
17            Telephone:  (925) 279-3009

18                    – and –

19            TODD BOLEY, Attorney at Law
1212 Broadway, 16th Floor
20            Oakland, California 94612
Telephone:  (510) 836-4500
21

22   For Defendant Dina Holder:

23            MARK E. DAVIS, Attorney at Law
DAVIS & YOUNG
24            1960 The Alameda, Suite 210
San Jose, California 95126
25            Telephone:  (408) 261-4245
3

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   For Defendants Brentwood Union School District and Lauri
James:
2
CLAUDIA LEED, Attorney at Law
3            STUBBS & LEONE
2175 N. California Boulevard, Suite 900
4            Walnut Creek, California 94596
Telephone:  (925) 974-8600
5

6   ALSO PRESENT:  ALINE MAYER, Videographer

7

8                             –oOo–

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4

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1                           PROCEEDINGS

2            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Good morning.

3            Here marks the beginning of the deposition of Dina

4   Holder in the matter of Kevin Phelan, et al. versus Dina

5   Holder, et al. in the U.S. District Court, Northern

6   District of California, Case Number C12-00465 LB.

7            We’re located at 200 Pringle Avenue in Walnut

8   Creek, California on December 4, 2012, at approximately

9   9:51.

10            My name is Aline Mayer of Cyrus Productions and

11   our court reporter is Janell Sokol of Diablo Valley

12   Reporting.

13            Counsel, please introduce yourselves and state who

14   you represent for the record.

15            MR. BOLEY:  Todd Boley appearing for the

16   plaintiff.

17            MR. ALFERT:  Peter Alfert appearing for the

18   plaintiff.

19            MS. LEED:  Claudia Leed for defendants Brentwood

20   Union School District and Lauri James.

21            MR. DAVIS:  And Mark Davis for Dina Holder.

22            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  If there are no stipulations,

23   our court reporter may now please swear in the witness.

24

25                             –oOo–
5

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1                          DINA HOLDER,

2            called as a witness on behalf of the plaintiffs,

3            having first been duly sworn by the court reporter

4            to testify the truth, the whole truth and nothing

5            but the truth, testified as follows:

6                             –oOo–

7                           EXAMINATION

8            BY MR. BOLEY:

9       Q.   Good morning.

10       A.   Good morning.

11       Q.   Can you state your name for the record, please.

12       A.   Dina Angela Holder.

13       Q.   Have you ever had your deposition taken before?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Let me just go over a few of the ground rules of

16   the deposition this morning.  Okay?

17            I represent the plaintiffs in an action involving

18   a student by the — that’s being identified in court by the

19   initials J.P.

20            Do you know who I’m referring to?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And I’m going to be asking you questions that

23   relate to that lawsuit and my first question to you is do

24   you understand that the answers you’ll be giving to my

25   questions today are under oath?
6

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Yes.

2       Q.   So it is as if you were testifying in court.

3            Do you understand that?

4       A.   Yes.

5       Q.   The court reporter here will be preparing a

6   written record, a transcript of everything that will be

7   said today, my questions, your answers, any comments made

8   by the attorneys who are present and that transcript can be

9   very significant in terms of this lawsuit in that it can be

10   referenced in motions.

11            If you testify later in the case and your

12   testimony at that time is different than the testimony that

13   you give today, that difference can be pointed out.

14            Do you understand that?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Okay.  And you’ll also have an opportunity to go

17   over the transcript and make any changes you want to that

18   transcript.

19            Do you understand that?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Okay.  And if you make a change that changes the

22   substance of your answer, of your testimony, that fact can

23   be pointed out.

24            Do you understand that?

25       A.   Yes.
7

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Okay.  So it’s very important that we be clear so

2   that we don’t create any misunderstanding that you didn’t

3   intend in terms of your testimony, so if you don’t

4   understand a question I’m asking, please ask me to repeat

5   it or rephrase it.

6            Do you understand that?

7       A.   Yes.

8       Q.   Okay.  And, you know, housekeeping, you know, as

9   we get into this, you know, sometimes it turns into a

10   normal conversation, but this isn’t a normal conversation

11   because of the court reporter taking down everything that’s

12   being said so, you know, we can’t talk over one another.

13   So please let me finish my question before you start your

14   answer and I’ll try to make certain that you’ve finished

15   your answer before I go to the next question.  Okay?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   All right.  And it’s important to give an audible

18   response, especially if it’s yes or no.  Again, in normal

19   conversations we’ll say uh-huh or uh-uh, but you can’t tell

20   the difference in the transcript.  Okay?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   All right.  Any questions before we begin?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   All right.  Any reason you can’t give your best

25   testimony today?
8

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   No.

2       Q.   Okay.  By whom are you employed?

3       A.   Brentwood Union School District.

4       Q.   And what is your position at Brentwood Union

5   School District?

6       A.   Special day education teacher.

7       Q.   How long have you worked for the Brentwood Union

8   School District?

9       A.   I started in 1992.

10       Q.   And in what position did you start your employment

11   with the Brentwood Union School District?

12       A.   I started with a special program that was funded

13   privately.  It was with preschoolers three to five.  It was

14   called Smart Start and we went to the parents’ home once a

15   week and then once a month they came to the school.

16       Q.   Now, were these preschoolers identified as special

17   education students?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   And how long did you work in this program,

20   Smart — what was the right word?

21       A.   Smart Start.

22       Q.   Yes.  How long did you work in the Smart Start

23   program?

24       A.   Five years.

25       Q.   And did you work out of a particular school site?
9

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Garin Elementary.

2       Q.   How do you spell that?

3       A.   G-a-r-i-n.

4       Q.   And did you report to — who was your immediate

5   supervisor?

6       A.   Connie Forrest.

7       Q.   And what was her title at that time?

8       A.   Director of special ed.

9       Q.   When you went to the homes of these preschool

10   students, did you go by yourself or were you accompanied by

11   some other staff person?

12       A.   I went by myself.

13       Q.   Now, did I understand you to say that in addition

14   there was some work at the school site?

15       A.   Correct, once a month.

16       Q.   And did you work with any other employees when —

17   at this once-a-month session at the school site?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And who was that?

20       A.   Different — there was eight teachers so it would

21   be different teachers.  We usually buddied up together and

22   did like a two-hour session at the school.

23       Q.   Do you remember who any of those teachers were?

24       A.   I don’t recall their names.

25       Q.   What was your next assignment — with Brentwood
10

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   Union School District after the Smart Start program?

2       A.   Special day preschool teacher.

3       Q.   And what was the reason for your change in your

4   assignment?

5       A.   I had applied for the position and I obtained it.

6       Q.   Did the Smart Start program continue or did it

7   terminate?

8       A.   No, it terminated.

9       Q.   And after it terminated you took the position of

10   special day preschool teacher?

11       A.   Correct.

12       Q.   And where was — where was the classroom that you

13   taught in?

14       A.   At Garin Elementary.

15       Q.   And who was the principal at Garin Elementary?

16       A.   At that time Shirley Winthrop.

17       Q.   Do you know if Ms. Winthrop is still —

18       A.   No.  She’s retired.

19       Q.   And to whom did you report when you worked as a

20   special day preschool teacher at Garin Elementary?

21       A.   Connie Forrest.

22       Q.   And at that time was she the — what was her

23   position at that time?

24       A.   Coordinator or director of special ed.  I’m not

25   quite sure of the title.
11

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Okay.  And how long did you work as a special day

2   preschool teacher at Garin Elementary?

3       A.   Two years.

4       Q.   And then where were you assigned?

5       A.   Brentwood Elementary.

6       Q.   And in what capacity did you work at Brentwood

7   Elementary?

8       A.   Preschool special day teacher.

9       Q.   Now, when you were a special day preschool teacher

10   at Garin Elementary, was there a special day preschool

11   class in any other school site?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   When you were working in that capacity at

14   Brentwood Elementary, was there any other special day

15   preschool anywhere else in the district?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   When you worked at Brentwood Elementary, who was

18   the principal?

19       A.   Cathy Hampton.

20       Q.   Does Cathy Hampton still work for the district?

21       A.   Retired.

22       Q.   And were you still supervised by Connie Forrest

23   when you were special day preschool teacher at Brentwood?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   What was your next assignment?
12

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Loma Vista Elementary.

2       Q.   And Lauri James was the principal —

3       A.   Yes.

4       Q.   — at Loma Vista Elementary; is that correct?

5       A.   Yes.

6       Q.   All right.  And was Connie Forrest still your

7   supervisor when you started working at Loma Vista?

8       A.   Yes.

9       Q.   Did your supervision change at any point after

10   beginning work at Loma Vista?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And when did that happen?

13       A.   I don’t recall what year it was.

14       Q.   Can you give me an approximation of how many years

15   it was after you started working at Loma Vista that there

16   was a change in your supervision?

17       A.   Connie Forrest was still the main person I worked

18   with, but then she became coordinator — that’s what it

19   was.  She became coordinator of special ed and there was a

20   director of special ed.

21       Q.   And who was the director of special ed?

22       A.   Linda — I don’t recall her last name.

23       Q.   Now, when this change in supervision occurred

24   whereby Connie Forrest was the coordinator of special ed

25   and this person first name Linda was the director, did
13

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   Connie Forrest still have any kind of role in terms of

2   supervising your work?

3       A.   Yes.  She was still my supervisor.

4       Q.   And would she be the person who would do your

5   evaluations?

6       A.   Yes.

7       Q.   All right.  Now, after Connie Forrest became the

8   coordinator of special ed and Linda, last name unknown —

9       A.   I can’t think of her name.

10       Q.   — was the director of special ed, was there then

11   another change in supervision?

12       A.   There was.  Linda retired and another person came

13   on and I don’t remember her name at all.

14       Q.   Last name Anthony?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And what was the — when Linda retired and then

17   this new person became director of special ed, what was her

18   role in your supervision or oversight as compared to

19   Connie’s?

20       A.   Connie was still the main person that I reported

21   to and she oversaw — Ms. Anthony oversaw the whole

22   program.

23       Q.   How often would you talk to Ms. Anthony?

24       A.   Not very often, periodically.  Maybe — maybe five

25   or six times in four months.
14

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   What was the next change in your supervision?

2       A.   The next change.  Margo Olson.

3       Q.   And do you remember when Margo Olson became the

4   director of special education?

5       A.   No, I don’t remember the date.

6            MR. DAVIS:  Wait.  Wait until he’s done with his

7   question.

8            THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

9            MR. BOLEY:

10       Q.   Do you know if it was before the incident

11   involving J.P.?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And was there any change in terms of Margo Olson’s

14   interaction with you or her supervision of you as compared

15   to Ms. Anthony?

16       A.   Can you rephrase that?

17       Q.   Sure.  Did Margo Olson have the same role in terms

18   of oversight and supervision of you that Ms. Anthony did?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Okay.  And when Margo Olson was director of

21   special ed, did you continue to report to Ms. Forrest?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   At what point did you stop reporting to

24   Ms. Forrest?

25       A.   I’m not sure.  It was either 2007 or 2008 school
15

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   year.

2       Q.   Okay.  Do you remember an incident in which you

3   kicked a student that’s been identified as J.P.?

4       A.   Yes.

5       Q.   And was J.P. a student of yours?

6       A.   Yes.

7       Q.   And was this a special day class that he was

8   enrolled in?

9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   On the day of this incident, how many students

11   were in the class?

12       A.   Ten or eleven.  I’m not sure exactly.

13       Q.   And were all of these students special education

14   students?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Okay.  How did the — let me start off, how did

17   the day begin that morning?

18       A.   I drove to work and started work and the children

19   started arriving, and they have twenty minutes to have free

20   time, which they get to play with different toys that are

21   in the room, and then it was time for circle time.

22       Q.   What time did you arrive at work that day?

23       A.   I don’t recall.

24       Q.   Did you arrive — when you arrived were there —

25   let me take a step back.
16

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1            On that morning were there any instructional aides

2   who worked with you in the classroom?

3       A.   Yes.

4       Q.   Who were those aides?

5       A.   Janice Lopez, Stacy Carpenetti and Kelly — I

6   can’t think of her last name.

7       Q.   Kelly Knapp?

8       A.   Yes.

9       Q.   Were there any other adults in the classroom that

10   morning other than the instructional aides?

11       A.   Not that I recall.

12       Q.   Okay.  When you arrived in the classroom, were any

13   of the other aides already there?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Were all three of them already there?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Who was there when you arrived?

18       A.   Janice Lopez.

19       Q.   Were any of the other aides present when you

20   arrived?

21       A.   Not that I recall.

22       Q.   All right.  When you arrived at work, how did you

23   feel?

24       A.   I was tired a little bit.

25       Q.   Did you feel upset about anything when you arrived
17

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   at school that morning?

2       A.   No.

3       Q.   Okay.  What do you remember happening during the

4   twenty minutes or so that the children had free time?

5       A.   They were playing and we were supervising.

6       Q.   Anything stand out in your mind about that

7   twenty-minute free play period?

8       A.   No.

9       Q.   All right.  Now, at some point it was time for

10   circle time; is that right?

11       A.   Correct.

12       Q.   Now, what typically happens during circle time?

13       A.   We sing songs, read stories, go over calendar, go

14   over the activities of the day.

15       Q.   All right.  And how do you announce the — how did

16   you announce the circle time?

17       A.   We sing a cleanup song and it’s time for circle.

18       Q.   Did you do that that morning?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Now, did you wear an amplifier during the class?

21       A.   Sometimes.

22       Q.   That morning were you wearing the amplifier?

23       A.   I don’t recall.

24       Q.   All right.  What happened after you — or what

25   happened while you were singing the cleanup song as far as
18

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   what the children were doing?

2       A.   The children were starting to clean up and come to

3   circle.

4       Q.   And what happened next?

5       A.   I went around and started helping clean up with

6   some of the kids and started — they started walking over

7   and then I went over to J.P.

8       Q.   All right.  And where was J.P.?

9       A.   He was sitting at a little children’s table

10   playing with some blocks.

11       Q.   And how far away was he from the circle area?

12       A.   Probably about ten feet, fifteen maybe, max.

13       Q.   Was anybody with him?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   How long after you started singing the circle — I

16   mean the cleanup song did you go over to where J.P. was

17   sitting?

18       A.   Probably a couple minutes.

19       Q.   And during that time other children were going to

20   the circle area?

21       A.   Correct.

22       Q.   Okay.  What happened after you went over to J.P.?

23       A.   I said —

24            MR. DAVIS:  Wait.  Just let me object.

25            As phrased it may call for a narrative.  She can
19

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   at least start off with it though.

2            MR. BOLEY:  Okay.

3            THE WITNESS:  Could you —

4            MR. BOLEY:

5       Q.   What happened after you went over to J.P.?

6       A.   I asked him to clean up and he yelled “no” and he

7   started yelling “no” and then he started crying.

8       Q.   All right.  And how many times did he say “no”?

9       A.   I don’t recall.

10       Q.   What did you say?

11       A.   I said, “Oh, come on, James.  It’s time to clean

12   up.  I’ll help you clean up.”

13       Q.   And you said that he started crying.

14       A.   Right.

15       Q.   And what happened immediately before him crying?

16       A.   Immediately before?

17       Q.   Yes.

18       A.   He was playing and he didn’t want to clean up,

19   basically is what it amounted to.

20       Q.   Had you said anything prior to him starting to

21   cry?

22       A.   That it was time to clean up.

23       Q.   All right.  Now, did you say anything other than

24   it’s time to clean up?

25       A.   I don’t believe so.
20

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Now, when you said — I think earlier you said —

2   can you give me an idea of the tone of voice that you used

3   when you said it’s time to clean up?

4       A.   It’s time to clean up.

5       Q.   So that tone of voice?

6       A.   Right.

7       Q.   All right.  What happened after he started crying?

8       A.   I said, “Come on, James.  It’s okay.  I’ll help

9   you clean up.”  And he continued to cry and yell “no” and

10   then he fell out of his chair.

11       Q.   How was it that he fell out of his chair?

12       A.   He was getting more upset and so he kind of was

13   wobbling back and forth and then just kind of fell to the

14   side off the chair.

15       Q.   Did you touch him in any way before he went to the

16   ground?

17       A.   I could have but I don’t recall that I have.

18       Q.   When you say you could have, what do you mean by

19   that?

20       A.   I might have touched him when he was falling.

21       Q.   All right.  Did you touch him in any way that

22   caused him to fall to the ground?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   You’re certain of that?

25       A.   Yes.
21

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   All right.  But you could have touched him?

2       A.   Yes.

3       Q.   What happened next?

4       A.   He was on the ground with his back facing me and I

5   said, “Come on, James, let’s get up,” and he didn’t.

6       Q.   And again, you used that tone of voice?

7       A.   Yes.

8       Q.   And what happened next?

9       A.   I stood behind him and I was about a foot away and

10   with the inside of my foot I nudged his back, lower back.

11       Q.   Now, did you nudge or did you kick him?

12            MR. DAVIS:  Just let me object.  It may be vague

13   and ambiguous.  She can go ahead, though.

14            THE WITNESS:  I would say that I — I wouldn’t say

15   that it was — it was lightly kicked.

16            MR. BOLEY:

17       Q.   So you lightly kicked him?

18       A.   (Nods head.)

19       Q.   Is that correct?

20       A.   Correct.

21       Q.   Okay.  And what happened next?

22       A.   He didn’t react or move.  I mean he still

23   continued to cry and yell “no.”

24       Q.   What did you do?

25       A.   I said, “Come on, James, let’s get up.  Let’s go
22

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   to circle.”

2       Q.   And what happened next?

3       A.   I lightly kicked him again.

4       Q.   And when you lightly kicked him the second time,

5   did you kick him lighter or harder or the same as the first

6   time you lightly kicked him?

7       A.   Probably the same.

8       Q.   What was going through your mind when you were

9   kicking him?

10       A.   It was just more like, come on, get up.

11       Q.   Were you angry?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Were you upset about him not following your

14   instructions?

15       A.   I wasn’t upset.  Probably frustrated.

16       Q.   What happened after you kicked him the second

17   time?

18       A.   I stopped and realized that wasn’t a good choice.

19       Q.   Why did you feel that?

20       A.   Because obviously I didn’t have intent to hurt

21   him, but it wasn’t doing anything so —

22       Q.   Did J.P. react to the second kick?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   In any way?

25       A.   No.  He had continued to cry and yell out “no.”
23

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   All right.  What happened next?

2       A.   My aide Kelly yelled out, “Dina,” and I — I had

3   already stopped and I looked at her.

4       Q.   How far away was Kelly?

5       A.   I don’t recall.

6       Q.   Can you estimate how many feet away she was?

7       A.   Probably about five feet.

8       Q.   And had you seen her, seen Kelly, before you

9   started kicking J.P.?

10       A.   I don’t recall.

11       Q.   What happened —

12            MR. DAVIS:  I’m sorry to interrupt.  By that last

13   question did you mean any time that morning or immediately

14   before this happened?

15            MR. BOLEY:  I think I said immediately before.

16       Q.   Do you remember seeing where Kelly was immediately

17   before you started kicking?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Do you remember what Kelly was doing during the

20   cleanup time?

21       A.   Helping kids clean up.

22       Q.   And what happened after Kelly told you to stop?

23       A.   I had already stopped and I looked at her and I

24   realized that I had made a mistake.

25       Q.   When you say you realized you made a mistake, what
24

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   do you mean by that?

2       A.   That my intent was just to get him up and not

3   anything else, but that probably wasn’t the best way.

4       Q.   And when you were kicking him, were you kicking

5   him in any particular direction?

6       A.   What do you mean by direction?

7       Q.   I mean were you trying to get him to move in a

8   particular direction?

9       A.   Just to get up.

10       Q.   So you weren’t trying to get him to move towards

11   the circle?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   All right.  What happened after you — after Kelly

14   made the statement to you and you looked at her?

15       A.   I walked out of the room.

16       Q.   Why was that?

17       A.   Because I was upset over what had just happened.

18       Q.   Why is that?

19       A.   Because I knew that there was other ways to handle

20   it and I didn’t handle it right.

21       Q.   Okay.  How long were you outside of the room?

22       A.   I don’t know.  I don’t recall.

23       Q.   Did anybody come outside of the room while you

24   were outside?

25       A.   From my classroom?
25

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Yes.

2       A.   Not that I recall.

3       Q.   Did you talk to anybody else after you went out of

4   the classroom after kicking J.P.?

5       A.   Yes.  I was upset and the librarian walked by and

6   she said, “Are you okay?” and I said, “Yes.”

7       Q.   Who is the librarian?

8       A.   Lynn Brachant.

9       Q.   Can you spell the last name?

10       A.   I don’t know how to spell it.

11       Q.   Okay.  Do you know if she still works for the

12   district?

13       A.   She does.

14       Q.   Does she work at Loma Vista?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Do you remember anything else about your

17   conversation with the librarian?

18       A.   No.  That was it.  And then she left.

19       Q.   Do you remember talking to anybody else?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Okay.

22       A.   One of the teachers that I’m friends with was

23   walking by with her class and she saw me upset and came

24   over and said, “What’s wrong?” and I said, “I am upset

25   about something that happened in my class.”
26

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Who was the teacher?

2       A.   Esme Bruesewitz.

3       Q.   And what grade does she teach?

4       A.   Kindergarten.

5       Q.   Does she teach in special education?

6       A.   No.

7       Q.   Do you remember anything else about what you said

8   other than you were upset about something that happened in

9   your class?

10       A.   I don’t recall.

11       Q.   Did you talk to anybody else after you left while

12   you were outside — let me ask this again just so I get the

13   timeframe right.

14            Did you talk to anybody else — let me take a step

15   back and let me start over again.

16            At some point did you go back into the classroom?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Between the time you left and the time you went

19   back, did you talk to anybody else other than the librarian

20   and Esme?

21       A.   Not that I recall.

22       Q.   Okay.  Now, when you went back into the classroom,

23   what was going on in the classroom?

24       A.   Circle time had happened.  It was going on.

25       Q.   Circle time was still happening?
27

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Right.

2       Q.   How long does circle time typically last?

3       A.   Anywhere from twenty to thirty minutes.

4       Q.   And who was running the circle time?

5       A.   I don’t really know.

6       Q.   All right.  What happened — do you remember

7   anything in particular happening during the circle time?

8   Does anything stand out in your mind?

9       A.   I don’t recall anything standing out.

10       Q.   Okay.  What happened after circle time?

11       A.   We got into groups, I think, and worked on

12   different activities.

13       Q.   Do you remember seeing J.P. after you returned to

14   the classroom?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   All right.  And what was he doing?

17       A.   He was participating.

18       Q.   Do you remember whether or not he was crying?

19       A.   I don’t recall.

20       Q.   Do you remember anything at all about — out of

21   the ordinary in terms of his appearance?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Do you remember anything out of the ordinary in

24   terms of his demeanor?

25       A.   No.
28

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   After you returned to the classroom, who was the

2   first person that you talked to about the kicking incident?

3       A.   Kelly.

4       Q.   Kelly Knapp?

5       A.   Um-hum.

6       Q.   And when did you talk to Kelly Knapp?

7       A.   I don’t recall.  I don’t know what time it was.

8       Q.   Do you remember where you talked to her?

9       A.   In the classroom.

10       Q.   Do you know if this talk that you had with Kelly

11   Knapp in the classroom was before or after the special day

12   class let out?

13       A.   It was during.

14       Q.   All right.  Who started the conversation, Kelly or

15   you?

16       A.   I don’t recall.

17       Q.   Thinking back in your memory, who — all right.

18   Take a step back.  Start over again.

19            What did you say to Kelly?

20       A.   I said I had made a mistake and that I had

21   remorse.

22       Q.   Did you use that word, “remorse”?

23       A.   I don’t know if I used that word, “remorse.”

24       Q.   To the best of your memory, what were the words

25   you used?
29

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Probably that I felt bad about what had happened.

2       Q.   What did Kelly say?

3       A.   She asked me what were you doing and I said I was

4   trying to get him up.  Why did you do that that way?  And I

5   said I was just trying to nudge him to get up.

6       Q.   What did she say?

7       A.   She said it wasn’t a very good choice.

8       Q.   What was her demeanor when she was speaking to

9   you?

10       A.   She was upset.

11       Q.   Did it appear to you that she was angry?

12       A.   I don’t know if it was anger.  She was just upset

13   over the incident.

14       Q.   When you spoke to her in explaining what you were

15   doing, did you use the word “nudge”?

16       A.   I don’t recall.

17       Q.   Do you remember anything else about your

18   conversation with Kelly Knapp?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Who was the next person that you talked to about

21   the incident?

22       A.   I don’t remember.  I don’t remember.

23       Q.   Do you remember speaking to anybody else that day?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   About the incident?
30

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Yes.

2       Q.   Okay.  Who else did you speak to about the

3   incident that day?

4       A.   To Janice and to Stacy.

5       Q.   And by the way, this occurred on a Tuesday; is

6   that right?

7       A.   Correct.

8       Q.   And where was it that you spoke to Janice?

9       A.   I believe it was in the classroom.

10       Q.   Do you know if it was before or after class let

11   out?

12       A.   I think it was during class.

13       Q.   All right.  And who initiated that conversation?

14       A.   I did.

15       Q.   And what did you say?

16       A.   I said I felt bad about what had happened.

17       Q.   Do you remember anything else that you said?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Do you remember what Janice said?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Do you remember anything else about your

22   conversation with Janice?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Do you remember when you spoke to Stacy?

25       A.   I don’t remember when I talked to her.
31

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Do you know where you were when you had the

2   conversation?

3       A.   In the classroom.

4       Q.   Okay.  Was it during class?

5       A.   I don’t recall.

6       Q.   Did you start the conversation or did she?

7       A.   I believe I did.

8       Q.   And what did you say?

9       A.   Again that I felt bad about what had happened.

10       Q.   Do you remember anything else about what you said?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Do you remember what Stacy said?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Do you remember anything at all — anything else

15   about that conversation with Stacy?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Do you remember talking to anybody else that

18   Tuesday that the incident happened about the incident?

19       A.   I talked to Connie Forrest.

20       Q.   All right.  And where did you speak to

21   Ms. Forrest?

22       A.   In her classroom.  She was teaching at the time.

23       Q.   So when you spoke to Connie, it was during a

24   period that she was conducting a class?

25       A.   No.  It was after school.  I meant that she had
32

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   become a teacher.

2       Q.   All right.  So now you had a morning and an

3   afternoon class; is that right?

4       A.   Correct.

5       Q.   So was this conversation that you had with Connie

6   after the conclusion of your afternoon class?

7       A.   Yes.

8       Q.   All right.  So did you start the conversation?

9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And what did you say?

11       A.   That an incident had occurred that morning and

12   that I was very upset about it.

13       Q.   Did you describe to Connie what the incident was?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   What did you tell her?

16       A.   That he had fallen off the chair and that I had

17   lightly kicked him.

18       Q.   And when you say you were upset about it, what did

19   you say about it?

20       A.   I realized it was a bad choice, it was the wrong

21   thing to do.

22       Q.   What did Connie say?

23       A.   Connie said that I needed to, you know, talk to my

24   aides and figure out, you know, what — why — why it

25   happened.
33

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   And when you say “figure out why it happened,” did

2   you say anything more about that?

3       A.   I don’t remember.

4       Q.   What did you understand her to be saying, “figure

5   out why it happened”?

6       A.   Well, just to communicate with my staff.

7       Q.   Did you say anything more about what you should

8   communicate with your staff about?

9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Do you remember anything else that Connie said in

11   this conversation?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Did you discuss whether or not to speak to J.P.’s

14   parents?

15            MR. DAVIS:  When she’s talking to Connie Forrest?

16            MR. BOLEY:  Yes, yes.

17            THE WITNESS:  I don’t recall.

18            MR. BOLEY:

19       Q.   Did you talk to Connie Forrest about whether or

20   not to speak to the principal?

21       A.   I don’t recall.

22       Q.   Did you talk to anybody else that day of the

23   incident about the incident during school time other than

24   Stacy, Janice, Kelly and Connie Forrest?

25       A.   Not that I recall.
34

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Did you speak to anybody after school that day

2   about the incident?

3       A.   My husband.

4       Q.   And what did you tell your husband?

5       A.   I told him what had happened.

6       Q.   And what did you tell him about what had happened?

7       A.   That I had lightly kicked a student.

8       Q.   Did you tell him anything else about the incident?

9       A.   Well, I mean I described the situation that, you

10   know, he wasn’t coming to circle.  I mean I went through

11   the whole — the whole process, the steps.

12       Q.   Okay.  And what did he tell you?

13            MR. DAVIS:  Just let me object.  I mean I’ll let

14   you ask about what she said to her husband because she’s

15   here, but let me object on marital privilege with respect

16   to his conversations.

17            MR. BOLEY:  All right.

18       Q.   You can answer the question.

19            MR. DAVIS:  No, I’m instructing her not to answer.

20            MR. BOLEY:  You’re going to instruct her not to

21   answer?

22            MR. DAVIS:  Right, on privilege.

23            MR. BOLEY:  All right.  We’ll get to that later.

24       Q.   Did you speak to anybody else —

25       A.   No.
35

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   — that day other than the people you’ve mentioned

2   so far?

3       A.   No.

4       Q.   Okay.  Who was the next person that you spoke to

5   about the incident?

6       A.   I believe it was Lauri James.

7       Q.   Okay.  Now — so the incident occurred on a

8   Tuesday.

9       A.   Correct.

10       Q.   Did you go to work — were you at school on

11   Wednesday?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And you taught the class?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And what about Thursday?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   So Wednesday and Thursday you were teaching the

18   class.

19       A.   Right.

20       Q.   That J.P. was attending.

21       A.   (Nods head.)

22       Q.   Okay.  And Friday was a day off; is that right?

23   School was out.

24       A.   It was?  I don’t recall that.

25       Q.   Okay.  You don’t remember?  Okay.
36

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   I know it was Memorial Day but I thought it was

2   Monday that we had off.  But it could have been Friday.  I

3   don’t recall.

4       Q.   You don’t recall whether or not Friday was a

5   school day or not?

6       A.   I believe it was a school day, but I’m not sure.

7       Q.   And so let’s just talk about Wednesday and

8   Thursday.  Wednesday and Thursday for sure J.P. came to

9   class?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Did you have any concern that J.P. might have a

12   problem coming back to class after you kicked him?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Why not?

15       A.   Because I don’t believe I hurt him.

16       Q.   Now, you said the next person you talked to was to

17   Lauri James; is that right?

18       A.   I believe so.

19       Q.   All right.  And when did you speak to Lauri James?

20       A.   I don’t know.  I don’t recall.

21       Q.   Do you remember how it was that you spoke to her?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Do you remember who initiated the conversation?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Do you remember where the conversation occurred?
37

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   I believe in her office.

2       Q.   Do you remember if you spoke to her on a school

3   day?

4       A.   Yes, it was a school day.

5       Q.   Do you remember how it was that you were in her

6   office?  Did you go to her office?  Did she call you into

7   her office?  Did you go on your own?  How was it that you

8   ended up in her office?

9       A.   I don’t remember if she called me or if I went in

10   there on my own.

11       Q.   When you went into the meeting with — or when you

12   met with Ms. James, who started the conversation?

13       A.   I don’t remember.

14       Q.   All right.  What did Ms. James say to you?

15       A.   She asked me what happened.

16       Q.   And what did you say?

17       A.   I told her the story.

18       Q.   All right.  And again what did you tell Ms. James

19   when you spoke to her about what happened?

20       A.   That I had lightly kicked J.P.

21       Q.   Did you tell her anything else about the incident?

22       A.   I told her the whole steps of what — how it

23   started and what happened.

24       Q.   Do you remember talking to J.P.’s mother after the

25   incident?
38

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   I talked to her on the phone the day of.

2       Q.   The day of the incident?

3       A.   Um-hum.

4       Q.   What was your purpose in calling her?

5       A.   To talk about that he had a rough day prior — in

6   the early morning.

7       Q.   And what did you say to her?

8       A.   That he — he cried and didn’t want to come to

9   circle and that then eventually he had a better day.

10       Q.   What did she say?

11       A.   I really don’t remember what she said.

12       Q.   How long was the conversation?

13       A.   I don’t — between five and ten minutes.

14       Q.   No more than ten minutes?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   What did you say to her other than he had a bad

17   day and that he eventually had a better day?

18       A.   Well, I had been talking to her prior to that on

19   his behavior because he had had other days that were

20   similar to that day where he refused to, you know, come to

21   an activity or come in from recess and things like that.

22   So we had been trying to work together and figure out ways

23   that would work to get him to come in, because she had that

24   trouble at home, too.

25       Q.   Okay.  When did she tell you that?
39

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Not in that conversation that day but another day.

2       Q.   And what did she tell you about his not coming in?

3       A.   Well, that he —

4       Q.   Well, no.  Let me start over again.

5       A.   Okay.

6       Q.   What did she tell you about any trouble she had

7   with him at home?

8       A.   That, you know, he wouldn’t listen, he didn’t

9   follow directions and, you know, didn’t always come when he

10   was asked to.

11       Q.   Do you remember what you said about his behavior

12   other than he had a bad day?

13       A.   That he had cried and was yelling “no.”

14       Q.   Did you tell her that he had not wanted to come to

15   circle?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And did you tell her that he had said “no”?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Did you tell her that you had kicked him?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Why not?

22       A.   I didn’t believe I hurt him and I was embarrassed.

23       Q.   Who was the next person that you spoke to about

24   the incident after you spoke to Lauri James?

25       A.   I don’t recall.  I don’t know if it was Margaret
40

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   Kruse or not.  I don’t remember.

2       Q.   Who else did you speak to about the incident, say

3   you know in the week after the incident, other than the

4   aides, Esme, the librarian, Connie Forrest and Lauri James?

5       A.   No one else that I recall.

6       Q.   Did you have more than one conversation with

7   Connie Forrest about the incident?

8       A.   No.

9       Q.   Did you ever talk to Samantha Sheldon about the

10   incident?

11       A.   If I did I don’t remember.

12       Q.   Did you ever talk to Heidi Vincent about the

13   incident?

14       A.   I don’t remember.

15       Q.   Did you ever talk to Margaret Kruse about the

16   incident?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And when did you speak to her about the incident?

19       A.   I don’t know if it was that week or the following

20   week.

21       Q.   All right.  And where did you have the

22   conversation?

23       A.   The conversation I remember was in Lauri James’

24   office.

25       Q.   Was anybody else present in Lauri James’ office
41

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   when you spoke to Margaret Kruse?

2       A.   Yes.  My cousin came with me.

3       Q.   Who is your cousin?

4       A.   Diane Perkins.

5       Q.   Why was Ms. Perkins present?

6       A.   Just so that I could hear — have two sets of ears

7   to hear everything that they were going to talk to me

8   about.

9       Q.   What does Diane Perkins do?

10       A.   She’s retired.

11       Q.   Does Ms. Perkins know Ms. James?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Does she know anybody at the school?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   What did Margaret Kruse say?

16       A.   That this was a very serious matter and that I was

17   put under — what’s the word — something conduct.  I can’t

18   think of the word.  And that, you know, I was on paid leave

19   that week.

20       Q.   Was it that week that was the week after the

21   incident?

22       A.   Correct.

23       Q.   And she told you you were on paid leave?

24       A.   Right.

25       Q.   And other than saying it was a very serious matter
42

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   and there was some reference to conduct, what else did she

2   say?

3       A.   She then proceeded to go into things that the

4   staff had said that I did.

5       Q.   And what things did she say the staff had said?

6       A.   I don’t recall them all, but things about being

7   late to school, not teaching, being on the computer,

8   other — I mean there was a list.

9       Q.   And do you remember anything else about the things

10   that the staff had said?

11       A.   I don’t recall them all, no.

12       Q.   What else did Margaret Kruse say?

13       A.   That I wasn’t going to be going back to teaching

14   preschool.

15       Q.   What else did she say?

16       A.   That I would have a new assignment.

17       Q.   And where was that assignment going to be?

18       A.   Krey Elementary.

19       Q.   Do you remember anything else that she said?

20       A.   No.  I was very upset.

21       Q.   Why was that?

22       A.   Because I — you know, I was being told I was

23   having to leave and start another position and just lots of

24   changes.

25       Q.   Did that seem unfair to you?
43

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   No.

2       Q.   When Margaret Kruse went through the items that

3   staff had said relating to your conduct, did you say

4   anything in response?

5       A.   I said some of it wasn’t true.

6       Q.   What wasn’t true?  What things did you say to

7   Margaret Kruse were not true?

8       A.   That I was teaching, and they said that I was

9   always sitting out and not teaching, and I was teaching.

10       Q.   Anything else?

11       A.   I don’t recall.

12       Q.   Do you remember her saying that staff said that

13   you were yelling in class at the students?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   What did you say to that?

16       A.   I said that sometimes I did.

17       Q.   Did she tell you that staff said that you used —

18   you were too physical than you needed to be with the

19   students?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Or words to that effect?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Okay.  What did you say to that?

24       A.   I was surprised.

25       Q.   Why is that?
44

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Because I didn’t believe I was physical with the

2   students.

3       Q.   Do you remember anything else that you disagreed

4   with in terms of the staff comments that Margaret Kruse

5   related to you?

6       A.   I don’t recall.

7       Q.   How many conversations did you have with Margaret

8   Kruse about this incident let’s say in the year following

9   the incident?

10       A.   The year following?

11       Q.   Yes.

12       A.   I don’t know.  I can’t — I mean I had

13   conversations with her, but I can’t give you a number.  I

14   don’t know.

15       Q.   Can you give me an estimate of how many times you

16   spoke to her — since the incident can you give me an

17   estimate of how many times you’ve spoken to Margaret Kruse

18   about the incident?

19       A.   To this date?

20       Q.   Yes.

21       A.   Well, I’ve had meetings.  I don’t know.  Twenty,

22   twenty-five times.

23       Q.   Now, you were reassigned to Krey Elementary

24   School; is that right?

25       A.   Yes.
45

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Now, how many conversations did you have with

2   Lauri James about the incident?

3       A.   I’m estimating, maybe ten.

4       Q.   About the incident?

5       A.   Yes.

6       Q.   Okay.  And did you have those conversations with

7   Lauri James before you transferred to Krey?

8       A.   Not all of them.

9       Q.   At some point did you become aware that the police

10   were investigating the incident?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   How did you find that out?

13       A.   I received something in the mail.

14       Q.   All right.  And what did you receive?

15       A.   That there was a — I don’t know what the word is.

16   There was — that there had been an incident reported.

17       Q.   All right.  And who did you — where did that

18   notice come from?

19       A.   I believe the Brentwood Police Department.

20       Q.   And then what’s the next thing that happened with

21   respect to the Brentwood Police Department and you

22   regarding this incident?

23       A.   I had to go talk to a police officer at the police

24   station.

25       Q.   And how did you find out that you needed to go and
46

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   talk to this officer at the police station?

2       A.   I got a phone call from him.

3       Q.   From the police officer?

4       A.   Um-hum.

5       Q.   Okay.  Is that a yes?

6       A.   Yes.

7       Q.   Okay.  And do you remember the police officer’s

8   name?

9       A.   No.

10       Q.   And what do you remember of the meeting with the

11   police officer?

12       A.   He wanted to take my statement and so I went over

13   the whole day of what had happened.

14       Q.   Was anybody else present with you when you spoke

15   to the police officer?

16       A.   My husband.

17       Q.   What’s the next thing that you remember happening

18   with the Brentwood Police Department regarding this

19   incident?

20       A.   It was a long time past.  I don’t remember if it

21   was — I think it was March of 2011 I received a letter in

22   the mail stating that I needed to appear in court.

23       Q.   Do you remember any other contact with the police

24   department between your interview and receiving the letter

25   stating you had to appear in court?
47

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   No.

2       Q.   Did you know that other persons were being

3   interviewed in relationship to that investigation?

4       A.   No.

5       Q.   Did you ever speak to anybody who said they were

6   being interviewed by the police?

7       A.   No.

8       Q.   What happened — okay.  Strike that.

9            Did you speak to anybody at the school about the

10   fact that you were being prosecuted?

11       A.   I don’t believe I did.

12       Q.   Did you ever make any request for time off in

13   order to make court appearances?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And to whom did you speak?

16       A.   I just put in for a substitute.  I didn’t really

17   speak to anybody.

18       Q.   So you didn’t talk to anybody at the school

19   district about the fact that you were appearing in court

20   relating to the prosecution?

21       A.   Right.

22       Q.   At sometime did you ask Lauri James to write a

23   letter for you?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And why did you do that?
48

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   I needed letters of reference to show that —

2   where I was employed and what I had done.

3       Q.   And what did you tell Ms. James?

4       A.   I needed a letter of reference.

5       Q.   And what did you tell her that you needed to have

6   in the letter?

7       A.   I don’t remember.

8       Q.   Did you tell her what the purpose of the letter

9   was for?

10       A.   I believe it was for court, but I’m not sure.

11       Q.   And did she send the letter to you?

12       A.   I think so, yes.

13       Q.   What did you do with the letter?

14       A.   I gave it to my lawyer.

15       Q.   Did you ever talk to anybody from the District

16   Attorney’s office about the incident?

17       A.   No.  Wait a minute.  When I went to court, the

18   District Attorney was there.  Is that what you mean?

19       Q.   Yes.

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Did you speak to the District Attorney?

22       A.   No, I did not.

23       Q.   Did you ever speak in court in relationship to the

24   prosecution?

25       A.   I did.
49

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   And when was that?

2       A.   It was December of 2011.

3       Q.   What did you say?

4       A.   That I regretted this incident and that I had a

5   lot of remorse and that I was going to have to live with

6   that for the rest of my life.

7       Q.   Do you remember anything else that you said?

8       A.   No.

9            MR. BOLEY:  I’ve been going for a while here.  I’d

10   like to take a break.

11            THE WITNESS:  Okay.

12            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We’re off the record.  It’s

13   11:00.

14            (Recess taken.)

15            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We’re now back on the record.

16   The time is 11:09.

17            Excuse me, counsel.  I need a second.  My

18   equipment just — it should come on in a second.  I’m

19   sorry.  It does this occasionally.

20            Now we’re back on the record and now it’s 11:10.

21            MR. BOLEY:

22       Q.   Going back to the incident, on a scale of one to

23   ten, ten being kicking as hard as you could and one being

24   as light as you could, where would you place the kicks on

25   that scale?
50

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Between a one and a two.

2       Q.   Where was J.P.’s body positioned?  How was he

3   positioned when he went to the floor?

4       A.   He was laying on his side.

5       Q.   And did his position change after the first kick?

6       A.   No.

7       Q.   Did his position change between the first kick and

8   the second kick?

9       A.   I don’t recall.

10       Q.   You don’t recall one way or the other?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Did his position change after the second kick?

13       A.   I don’t believe so.

14       Q.   Now, I think you said something along the lines of

15   you told him it’s time to go to circle or it’s time to

16   clean up?

17       A.   Correct.

18       Q.   Do you remember saying anything else at the time

19   you were kicking him?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Do you remember saying “son of a bitch” or “stupid

22   son of a bitch”?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Do you remember saying “SOB”?

25       A.   I don’t recall.
51

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Do you remember saying, “I’m sick of him”?

2       A.   No.

3       Q.   Did you raise your voice at any time, either

4   before, during or immediately after kicking him?

5       A.   Not that I recall.

6       Q.   If somebody were to say that you called J.P. a son

7   of a bitch or a stupid son of a bitch, would that be

8   accurate?

9            MR. DAVIS:  Let me object, it calls for

10   speculation and lacks foundation.  She can go ahead though.

11            It’s also vague and ambiguous.  She can go ahead.

12            THE WITNESS:  Can you repeat that.

13            MR. BOLEY:

14       Q.   If somebody were to say that you called J.P. a son

15   of a bitch or a stupid son of a bitch at the time you

16   kicked him, would that be correct?

17            MR. DAVIS:  Same objections.  She can go ahead.

18            THE WITNESS:  I don’t recall.

19            MR. BOLEY:

20       Q.   So you don’t recall one way or the other whether

21   or not you said “son of a bitch”?

22       A.   I don’t recall.

23       Q.   Do you remember that you said something?

24       A.   No, I don’t remember.

25       Q.   You don’t remember one way or the other — do you
52

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   remember saying anything other than it’s time to clean up

2   or it’s time for circle time?

3       A.   I don’t remember saying anything else.

4       Q.   Do you know if you did say something else?

5       A.   I don’t remember.

6       Q.   If somebody said that you did say “son of a bitch”

7   or “stupid son of a bitch” at the time you kicked J.P.,

8   would you disagree with that?

9            MR. DAVIS:  Let me object.  Given her prior

10   testimony, she’d have to speculate to answer.  It’s also

11   vague and ambiguous.  She can go ahead though.

12            THE WITNESS:  I would say no.

13            MR. BOLEY:  You’d say no.  All right.

14       Q.   Are you aware of any reason why any of the aides

15   would have for giving a misstatement about what you said?

16       A.   I don’t know what you mean.

17       Q.   Are you aware of any reason that any of the aides

18   in the classroom have for misstating what you said at the

19   time you kicked J.P.?

20       A.   Well, I really can’t speak for them, so I don’t

21   know.

22       Q.   Okay.  But you’re not aware of any reason that

23   they would have for not telling the truth?

24       A.   Right.

25       Q.   I mean they don’t have any grudges against you, do
53

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   they?

2       A.   No.  Not that I’m aware of, no.

3       Q.   Have you ever called a child in the classroom a

4   son of a bitch or a stupid son of a bitch?

5       A.   No.

6       Q.   Have you ever referred to children in the

7   classroom as a little shit?

8       A.   No.

9       Q.   Have you ever referred to children while you were

10   in the classroom as a son of a bitch or a stupid son of a

11   bitch?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Have you ever referred to J.P. as a son of a bitch

14   or a stupid son of a bitch?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   If Janice Lopez were to say that you had referred

17   to J.P. as a stupid son of a bitch or a son of a bitch on a

18   number of occasions, would that statement be accurate?

19       A.   No.

20            MR. DAVIS:  I’m going to object.  It calls for

21   speculation.  It’s vague and ambiguous.  She can go ahead

22   though.

23            THE WITNESS:  No.

24            MR. BOLEY:

25       Q.   Are you aware of any reason that Janice Lopez
54

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   would have for making a misstatement about your conduct in

2   the classroom with respect to J.P.?

3       A.   No, I’m not aware of any.

4            MR. BOLEY:  Can we go off the record for a second?

5            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Off the record, 11:15.

6            (Off record.)

7            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We’re back on the record.

8   11:18.

9            MR. BOLEY:

10       Q.   I think you said that your first assignment was at

11   Garin Elementary.

12       A.   Correct.

13       Q.   And that was as a special education — special day

14   class teacher?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   What was your —

17       A.   That was the preschool Smart Start.

18       Q.   Okay.  And then where did you first work in a

19   special day class?

20       A.   Garin Elementary.

21       Q.   All right.  Now, at Garin Elementary while you

22   were there did you receive any complaints, and by that I

23   mean informal, formal, written or not, about your

24   performance as a teacher?

25            MR. DAVIS:  Just let me object as vague, ambiguous
55

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   and overbroad.  She can go ahead though.

2            THE WITNESS:  No, not that I’m aware of.

3            MR. BOLEY:

4       Q.   Did anybody express a concern that you yelled at

5   students or staff?

6            MR. DAVIS:  Same objections, also calls for

7   speculation.  She can go ahead.

8            THE WITNESS:  No.

9            MR. BOLEY:

10       Q.   Nobody told you that they had any concerns about

11   that?

12       A.   Right.

13       Q.   Okay.  Any concerns expressed that you were too

14   loud?

15            MR. DAVIS:  Same objections.

16            MR. BOLEY:

17       Q.   And by the way, I’m just asking things that — you

18   know, concerns that you’re aware of.

19       A.   I have a loud voice so —

20       Q.   But did anybody express a concern that your

21   voice — that you used too loud of a voice in the

22   classroom?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Were you aware of any concerns being expressed

25   about your physical interaction with students?
56

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   No.

2       Q.   Your next assignment was at Brentwood Elementary;

3   is that correct?

4       A.   Correct.

5       Q.   Again, any complaints, oral, written, informal,

6   formal, about your performance as a teacher?

7       A.   Not that I’m aware of.

8       Q.   Any concerns that you yelled at students or staff?

9       A.   Not that I’m aware of.

10       Q.   That you used too loud a voice in the classroom?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Any concerns expressed that you’re aware of

13   relating to your physical interactions with students?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   That brings us to Loma Vista; is that correct?

16       A.   Correct.

17       Q.   All right.  And I want to talk about prior to

18   2007-2008, okay, that school year?

19       A.   Okay.

20       Q.   All right.  Prior to 2007-2008 were you aware of

21   any complaints being made, and again oral or written,

22   informal, formal, about your performance as a teacher?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Are you aware that anybody expressed any concerns

25   that you yelled at students or staff?
57

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   No.

2       Q.   Any concerns that you used too loud a voice in the

3   classroom?

4       A.   No.

5       Q.   Any concerns that you’re aware of being expressed

6   about your physical interactions with students?

7       A.   No.

8       Q.   Did you ever become aware that a student in your

9   classroom at Loma Vista left the classroom unattended?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   How did you become aware of that?

12       A.   After I did a head count.

13       Q.   And when did that occur?

14       A.   I don’t remember.

15       Q.   Do you remember the school year?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Do you remember approximately?  And by the way,

18   you know, I’m going to ask you about things that happened

19   in the past.

20       A.   Right.

21       Q.   And I don’t want you to make it up if you have no

22   memory about the thing I’m asking you about.  You know,

23   feel free to tell me.

24            But I am entitled to your best estimate, so if

25   we’re talking about time or distance or something like
58

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   that, if there’s a way that you can estimate for me without

2   speculating, you know, I’m entitled to that answer.  Okay?

3       A.   Yes.

4       Q.   Okay.  Approximately how long before the kicking

5   incident with J.P. did you become aware of a student

6   leaving the classroom unattended?

7       A.   I don’t remember what year it was.

8       Q.   And you can’t give me an approximation?

9       A.   Maybe it was 2005, 2006.

10       Q.   That’s your best estimate?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   So you testified you became aware of this after

13   doing a head count in the classroom.

14       A.   Correct.

15       Q.   And what happened after you did the head count?

16       A.   We started looking for the child.

17       Q.   And where did you look?

18       A.   Well, first in the classroom and then outside on

19   the playground.

20       Q.   And did you find the child?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Where did you find the child?

23       A.   If I recall, on the playground.

24       Q.   Was anybody with the child?

25       A.   No.
59

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   How long after you did the head count and

2   determined the child was missing did you locate the child?

3       A.   Within three minutes, three to five minutes.

4       Q.   And what happened after you located the child?

5       A.   Brought the child back to class.

6       Q.   Do you remember anything else about that incident?

7       A.   No.

8       Q.   Did you ever talk — and, you know, don’t give me

9   the name.  Without disclosing a name, did you ever talk to

10   the parents of this child?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And how did that come up that you had that

13   discussion?

14       A.   That we had lost a child.

15       Q.   And you contact — did you contact the parents?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And you told the parents that you had lost the

18   child?

19       A.   Right.

20       Q.   And what did you tell the parents other than you

21   had lost the child?

22       A.   I don’t recall.

23       Q.   Do you remember anything the parents said?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   What was their reaction when you told them that
60

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   you had lost —

2       A.   They were very upset.

3       Q.   Do you remember talking to any other parents about

4   this incident involving the child who left the classroom?

5       A.   No.

6       Q.   Do you remember talking to Lauri James about the

7   incident?

8       A.   I don’t remember.

9       Q.   Do you know whether or not Lauri James was

10   informed of the incident?

11       A.   I believe she was.

12       Q.   When you say you believe she was, why do you say

13   that?

14       A.   Well, because after that we became — we got

15   gates, because it was an open area and they put a gate in.

16       Q.   And where did they put the gate?

17       A.   It was a hallway and they put the gates — and the

18   hallway led to the playground and they put the gates at the

19   beginning of the playground.

20       Q.   So this is a hallway outside of the classroom?

21       A.   Correct.

22       Q.   And so a gate was placed in the hallway outside of

23   the classroom between the hallway and the playground?

24       A.   Correct.

25       Q.   All right.  And do you remember Ms. James being
61

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   involved in the decision to put the gates —

2       A.   Yes.

3       Q.   Do you remember being in any meetings with

4   Ms. James about this incident?

5       A.   I don’t know.

6       Q.   You know, before I forget it, at any point after

7   the incident, the kicking incident involving J.P., did you

8   decide that you would contact the parents?

9       A.   Did I decide?

10       Q.   Yes.

11            MR. DAVIS:  Just so I’m clear, about the incident?

12            MR. BOLEY:  Yes, about the incident.

13       Q.   Do you understand the question?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Okay.  Was there a point after the kicking

16   incident where you made a decision that you were going to

17   contact the parents about the incident?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Was there a point after the kicking incident where

20   you had made a decision that you were going to contact

21   Lauri James about the incident?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   When did you make that decision?

24       A.   The next day.

25       Q.   So the Wednesday?
62

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Right.

2       Q.   And when you made that decision, when did you

3   intend to contact Ms. James?

4       A.   That day.

5       Q.   Did you contact her that day?

6       A.   I believe I did.

7       Q.   And was that the meeting that you had with

8   Ms. James in her office?

9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And it’s your memory that you had that meeting

11   with Ms. James the day after the kicking incident?

12       A.   I believe so.

13       Q.   And so that would have been a Wednesday?

14       A.   Correct.

15       Q.   Okay.  Do you remember being called into the

16   school on a day that school was out to talk to Ms. James?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   When you spoke to Ms. James, did she give you the

19   impression that she had already heard about the incident?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And how did she do that?  I mean how did she give

22   you that impression?  How did you come away with the

23   impression that she already knew about the incident?

24       A.   Because she had said she heard about it, that

25   someone had talked to her about it.
63

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   And when you talked to her on this Wednesday, on

2   the day after the incident in her office, I think you

3   testified earlier that you can’t remember whether or not

4   she called you into the office or —

5       A.   Yeah, I don’t remember.

6       Q.   Let me just finish the question.

7            So you can’t remember whether or not she called

8   you into the office or whether you came to the office on

9   your own?

10       A.   I can’t remember.

11       Q.   All right.  But it’s your testimony that prior to

12   your meeting with Ms. James, you had already decided that

13   you were going to tell Ms. James about it; is that right?

14       A.   Correct.

15       Q.   Did you tell anybody else that you had made that

16   decision?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Do you remember Ms. Forrest asking you whether or

19   not you were going to contact Ms. James?

20       A.   No, I don’t remember.

21       Q.   Do you remember telling Ms. James that you

22   would — I’m sorry, Ms. Forrest that you would think about

23   contacting Ms. James?

24       A.   No, I don’t remember that.

25       Q.   Do you remember in any of your conversations after
64

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   the incident in speaking to anybody at the school a

2   discussion about whether or not a report would be made to

3   Child Protective Services or the police about the incident?

4       A.   I don’t recall.

5       Q.   You don’t recall one way or the other?

6       A.   No.

7       Q.   Okay.  Okay.  I want to go back to the school year

8   2007-2008.  All right?

9       A.   Okay.

10       Q.   Did you become aware of any complaints being made

11   during that school year about your performance as a

12   teacher?

13            MS. LEED:  I’m sorry.  What school year was that

14   again?

15            MR. BOLEY:  2007-2008.

16            MS. LEED:  Thank you.

17            THE WITNESS:  What do you mean by performance as a

18   teacher?

19            MR. BOLEY:

20       Q.   Well, are you aware of any complaints, oral,

21   written, formal, informal, in which somebody expressed the

22   opinion that you had performed your role as a teacher

23   inappropriately?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   How many complaints are you aware of being made
65

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   during the 2007-2008 school year?

2       A.   I believe two.

3       Q.   Without giving me the name of the student

4   involved, what was the complaint in the first incident?

5       A.   That I slapped a child.

6       Q.   How did you find out about that complaint?

7       A.   I believe I was called into the office.

8       Q.   And when you say the office, do you mean —

9       A.   The school office.

10       Q.   All right.  And who did you speak to in the

11   office?

12       A.   Lauri James.

13       Q.   And what did Lauri James tell you?

14       A.   That a parent had come in very upset and that she

15   accused me of slapping her son.

16       Q.   What did you say?

17       A.   I said I didn’t do it.

18       Q.   What happened next?

19       A.   They must have gone to the police, because then I

20   had to talk to a police officer.

21       Q.   Do you remember talking to anybody else about the

22   complaint other than Lauri James before you spoke to the

23   police officer?

24       A.   I think I talked to Janice Lopez.

25       Q.   And what did you talk to Janice Lopez about?
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Because the incident that happened, she was

2   standing there when they were alleging that I slapped him,

3   and she said — we talked about it and she said she didn’t

4   know what they were talking about.  So I said I didn’t do

5   it and she said I didn’t see you do anything.

6       Q.   Now, what did Lauri James tell you about the

7   complaint other than the parent was very upset and the

8   parent had accused you of slapping her son?

9       A.   That — I don’t know what you mean.

10       Q.   Well, do you remember anything else that Lauri

11   James told you about the complaint other than the parent

12   said you had slapped her son and that the parent was upset?

13       A.   That’s pretty much it.

14       Q.   Okay.  You can’t remember anything else?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   All right.  So you went back and you talked to

17   Janice Lopez about the complaint; is that right?

18       A.   Um-hum.

19       Q.   Is that right?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Okay.  Now, it’s your testimony you never slapped

22   this child, right?

23       A.   Correct.

24       Q.   All right.  Now, when you say that Janice Lopez

25   was present, since the slapping never occurred, how was it
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   that you were able to reconstruct with Ms. Lopez where she

2   was when the incident happened?

3       A.   Because of the story that was told — you’re

4   right, that was told to Mrs. James.

5       Q.   What was the story?

6       A.   That we were getting ready to go outside and that

7   that’s when I slapped him, when we were lining up.

8       Q.   All right.  So you were told by Ms. James that the

9   parents said —

10       A.   Right.

11       Q.   — that you had slapped the child when the

12   students were ready to go outside and were lining up?

13       A.   Correct.

14       Q.   All right.  Do you remember anything else about

15   what Ms. James said about the complaint?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Was the parent in the office when you came to talk

18   to Ms. James?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Did you speak to the parent that day?

21       A.   I don’t think so.

22       Q.   Did you see the parent that day?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Did you see the child that day after you learned

25   of the complaint?
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   After I learned of the complaint?

2       Q.   Yes.

3       A.   No.

4       Q.   All right.  Do you know one way or the other —

5   I’m not asking you to speculate, but do you know one way or

6   the other if the child was at the school after the

7   complaint was made?

8       A.   I think she did bring him to the school.

9       Q.   Why do you say that?

10       A.   Because they said that when she came to the

11   office, she had him with her.

12       Q.   What did they say about the child?

13       A.   That he was with her.

14       Q.   Okay.  Did anybody say that they looked at the

15   child?

16       A.   Looked at the child.  What do you mean?

17       Q.   Did anybody say that they saw any injury on the

18   child?

19       A.   No one said they saw any —

20       Q.   Did anybody say that they saw a red mark on the

21   child?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   What do you remember of what was happening in the

24   classroom at the time that the children were lining up to

25   go outside?
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   That he liked to be first always in line and he

2   pushed three kids to get to the front of the line, and I

3   told him he couldn’t be at the front of the line.

4       Q.   And what words did you use?

5       A.   I said you can’t do that.  You can’t go to the

6   front of the line because you cut in front of other

7   students.  You need to go to the back of the line.

8       Q.   Did you raise your voice?

9       A.   Not that I recall.

10       Q.   And so how many students were in line?

11       A.   I don’t know.  Maybe eight.

12       Q.   And these were all preschool children, correct?

13       A.   Correct.

14       Q.   All right.  And where were the students lining up?

15       A.   In front of the door to go outside.

16       Q.   Inside the classroom?

17       A.   Correct.

18       Q.   What other adults were working in the classroom

19   that day?

20       A.   I believe Sandy Simmons and Michelle Eakins, I

21   think, Akins, Eakins.

22       Q.   Was Janice Lopez working?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   All right.  So Janice Lopez was working there; is

25   that right?
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Yes.

2       Q.   And Sandy — I’m sorry, what was the last name?

3       A.   Simmons.

4       Q.   Now, does Sandy Simmons still work for the

5   district?

6       A.   No.

7       Q.   Do you know where she works?

8       A.   No.

9       Q.   And Michelle, what was her last name?

10       A.   Eakins.

11       Q.   All right.  Does she still work for the district?

12       A.   I’m not sure.

13       Q.   Now, were Michelle and Sandy instructional aides?

14       A.   Correct.

15       Q.   And Janice Lopez was an instructional aide?

16       A.   Correct.

17       Q.   All right.  Who was in the classroom with the

18   children who were lining up other than yourself?

19       A.   Janice Lopez was there and Sandy and Michelle were

20   at the other end of the room, still gathering kids to come

21   to the line.

22       Q.   Do you remember anybody changing a child’s diaper

23   while this was happening?

24       A.   I don’t remember.

25       Q.   Some of the children needed diaper changes, right?
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Correct.

2       Q.   And where did that — where did the diaper changes

3   happen?

4       A.   We had an adjoining classroom and the bathroom was

5   in the adjoining classroom.

6       Q.   Do you know whether Sandy and Michelle were in a

7   position to see what was going on between you and this

8   child?

9       A.   No.

10       Q.   No, you don’t know?

11       A.   I don’t know.

12       Q.   Okay.  Did you ever talk to Sandy and Michelle

13   about the incident?

14       A.   I don’t remember.

15       Q.   Do you remember seeing Janice Lopez during this

16   interaction with this child?

17       A.   Um-hum, yes.  She was standing in line.

18       Q.   Janice Lopez was standing in line?

19       A.   Right.  She was getting the kids to stand in line,

20   so she was right next to the line.

21       Q.   How far away was she from you?

22       A.   About three feet.

23       Q.   All right.  So you testified that this boy — it

24   was a boy; is that right?

25       A.   Yes.
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Okay.  That the boy had tried to cut to the front

2   of the line; is that right?

3       A.   Correct.

4       Q.   And what did you say?

5       A.   I said you can’t do that.  You need to get into

6   the back of the line.

7       Q.   And what happened next?

8       A.   He was angry and he cried, and he reluctantly went

9   to the back of the line.

10       Q.   Did you touch him at any point between the time he

11   tried to cut into the line and the time that he went back

12   to the back of the line?

13       A.   I don’t recall.

14       Q.   You don’t recall one way or the other?

15       A.   Right.

16       Q.   Do you know whether or not you guided him to the

17   back of the line?

18       A.   I don’t know.

19       Q.   So you don’t remember whether or not you touched

20   him in that process?

21       A.   I don’t remember touching him.

22       Q.   Did you slap him?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   All right.  Do you remember anything else

25   happening after the child reluctantly went to the back of
73

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   the line?

2       A.   He was crying.  He was mad because he —

3       Q.   Do you remember — go ahead.

4       A.   He wanted to be in the front of the line, so he

5   was mad that he had to be in the back.

6       Q.   Do you remember anything else about that

7   interaction with the child?

8       A.   No.

9       Q.   Do you remember any other interactions with that

10   child during that day?  Does anything stand out in your

11   mind?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Do you remember at any point during the day in

14   which you became angry or frustrated with this boy?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   When he was trying to cut into the front of the

17   line, what were you feeling?

18       A.   Well, I mean this wasn’t the first time he did

19   this.  He’s done it prior because he always wanted to be in

20   the front.  It was just kind of like, well, here he goes

21   again so —

22       Q.   So you didn’t feel upset?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   You didn’t feel angry?

25       A.   No.
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Or frustrated with him?

2       A.   No.

3       Q.   All right.  So you spoke to a police officer about

4   the complaint; is that right?

5       A.   Correct.

6       Q.   What’s the next thing that you remember in

7   relationship to that incident after speaking to the police

8   officer?

9       A.   That he was going to write up my statement and

10   that’s all I remember.

11       Q.   Do you remember speaking to Ms. James about the

12   complaint on any other occasions other than when she called

13   you into the office to inform you of the complaint?

14       A.   Yeah, I think I talked to her about it another

15   time.

16       Q.   And what did you say?

17       A.   We just went over what had happened and, you know,

18   that the parent was very upset, and that it didn’t happen.

19       Q.   Could the boy speak?

20       A.   He spoke a little bit but not very much.  It was

21   more one word kind of thing.

22       Q.   When you say one word kind of thing, what do you

23   mean?

24       A.   Well, he could answer yes or no.  He spoke — he

25   was Hispanic.  He spoke a little bit of Spanish and a
75

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   little bit of English, but it was more of a combination

2   that didn’t really make sense, so he was intelligible.

3       Q.   Unintelligible?

4       A.   Yes.

5       Q.   Okay.  I mean did you use sign language?

6       A.   No.

7       Q.   I mean were you ever able — was he ever able to

8   express to you, you know, any kind of thought other than

9   yes or no?

10       A.   Well, I mean I think he used his facial

11   expressions to, you know, display his feelings.  I mean I

12   could tell if he was upset or, you know, happy, because he

13   smiled or, you know, different things like that.

14       Q.   Well, did you ever experience him being able to

15   communicate something along the lines of a woman in a red

16   blouse slapped me?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   So he wouldn’t — I mean did you ever have any

19   experience with him being able to describe a color or to

20   express a color or identify a color?

21       A.   I don’t recall.

22            MR. BOLEY:  You know, it’s 11:50 and we’re about

23   ready to run out of tape, so I’m just thinking this would

24   be a good time to break for lunch.  Is that okay?

25            MR. DAVIS:  Sure.
76

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1            MR. BOLEY:  And come back at 12:45?  Does that

2   work?  Or would you like a little bit more time?

3            MR. DAVIS:  Maybe 1:00.

4            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Here marks the end of tape one

5   of the deposition for Ms. Holder.  We’re off the record.

6   It’s 11:50.

7            (Recess taken.)

8            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Here marks the beginning of

9   tape two in the deposition for Dina Holder.  We’re back on

10   the record.  It’s 1:01.

11            MR. BOLEY:  Good afternoon.

12       Q.   Going back to the incident in which a parent

13   complained that you had slapped her son, you said that you

14   talked to Lauri James; is that right?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   On more than one occasion?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Did you speak to anybody else in the district

19   about the incident?

20            MS. LEED:  That misstates.  It’s vague and

21   ambiguous as to what you mean by district.  Lauri James is

22   not an official in the district.  She’s the principal of

23   the school.

24            MR. BOLEY:

25       Q.   Did you talk to anybody else who works for the
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   district about the complaint?

2       A.   Not that I recall.

3       Q.   Do you remember talking to Jean Anthony?

4       A.   I don’t remember.

5       Q.   You couldn’t remember Ms. Anthony’s first name?

6       A.   It’s Jean, yes.

7       Q.   So Jean Anthony was the director of special

8   education?

9       A.   Correct.

10       Q.   So you don’t remember talking to Jean Anthony

11   about the complaint?

12       A.   I don’t.

13       Q.   Do you know if anybody talked to Janice Lopez

14   about the incident?

15       A.   I don’t know.

16       Q.   Do you know if anybody talked to the other two

17   aides who were in the classroom?

18       A.   I don’t know.

19       Q.   Did anybody ever tell you what the outcome of that

20   complaint was?

21       A.   That it was dropped, that there wasn’t enough

22   evidence to state that there — that anything happened.

23       Q.   Now, you mentioned that there was another

24   complaint from that ’07-’08 year, and again without giving

25   the name of the student or the parent, what was the nature
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   of the complaint?

2       A.   That I shook a student.

3       Q.   How did you find out about the complaint?

4       A.   I believe it was through Lauri James.

5       Q.   And what did Lauri James tell you?

6       A.   That there was a complaint that I shook a student.

7       Q.   Did she give you any more information than that?

8       A.   Well, who the student was and when supposedly it

9   happened.

10       Q.   Other than the name and the date and the fact that

11   you shook a student, did Ms. James tell you anything else

12   about the complaint?

13            MR. DAVIS:  Well, that she allegedly shook a

14   student.

15            MS. LEED:  Join, misstates testimony.

16            MR. BOLEY:

17       Q.   The complaint was that you shook a student; is

18   that right?

19       A.   Correct.

20       Q.   Okay.  Other than the date and the fact — or the

21   complaint that you shook the student and the name of the

22   student, did Ms. James tell you anything else about the

23   complaint?

24       A.   I don’t recall.

25       Q.   Do you remember that the parent wrote a letter?
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Yes.

2       Q.   Did you see the letter?

3       A.   No.

4       Q.   Do you remember the incident that the parent was

5   complaining about?

6       A.   Yes.

7       Q.   And what happened — first off, where were you

8   when this incident allegedly occurred?

9       A.   At the art table.

10       Q.   And this is the art table in the classroom?

11       A.   Correct.

12       Q.   And what were you doing?

13       A.   Sitting behind a student that was standing up at

14   the table.

15       Q.   And were you sitting — I assume that there’s

16   chairs in the classroom that were for students —

17       A.   Correct.

18       Q.   — right?

19       A.   Right.

20       Q.   Were you sitting in one of the student’s chairs?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And the student was standing up?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   How tall was this student approximately?

25       A.   I don’t know.  Three feet.
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   How old was the student?

2       A.   Three.

3       Q.   Did the student speak?

4       A.   No.

5       Q.   Did the student know sign language?

6       A.   I think some.

7       Q.   And what type of project was the student working

8   on?

9       A.   An art project.

10       Q.   Do you remember what type of art project it was?

11       A.   I don’t remember if it was coloring or if it was

12   cutting and gluing.  I don’t remember.

13       Q.   And were there any other adults present in the

14   classroom?

15       A.   Yes, Janice Lopez.

16       Q.   And where was Janice Lopez in relation —

17       A.   Sitting directly across from me.

18            MR. DAVIS:  Wait until he’s done with his

19   question.

20            THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Sorry.

21            MR. BOLEY:

22       Q.   So you were sitting behind the student, who was

23   standing?

24       A.   Correct.

25       Q.   And Janice Lopez was sitting directly across from
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   you?

2       A.   Right.

3       Q.   And that’s directly across from the art table; is

4   that right?

5       A.   Yes.

6       Q.   And what was she doing at this time?

7       A.   Working with another student.

8       Q.   Was that student also doing an art project?

9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And Ms. Lopez was sitting behind that student?

11       A.   If I recall, yes.

12       Q.   All right.  Now, what happened?

13       A.   He had one more part to do on it and he was

14   signing that he was done, and I said, “Oh, come on.  Just

15   finish.”

16            And so I had my hands on either side of him

17   because he wanted to leave the area, and I said, “Oh, no.

18   Go ahead and finish,” and that was all that happened.

19       Q.   Now, you said you had your hands on either side.

20   What were your hands touching?

21       A.   The table.

22       Q.   Was any part of your body touching the student?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   All right.  So you told him, go ahead and finish?

25       A.   Um-hum.
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Did you say those words?

2       A.   I believe I did.

3       Q.   Did you sign anything to him?

4       A.   No.

5       Q.   Do you know sign language?

6       A.   Very little.

7       Q.   Okay.  And so you said, “Oh, no.  Go ahead and

8   finish”; is that correct?

9       A.   Right.

10       Q.   What did the student do?

11       A.   He was shaking his head back and forth saying no.

12       Q.   All right.  And when he was doing this, he was

13   standing up?

14       A.   Correct.

15       Q.   All right.  And he was shaking his head back and

16   forth?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   So he was basically saying no by shaking his head

19   back and forth?

20       A.   Right.

21       Q.   Okay.  And throughout this time, your hands were

22   on the table; is that right?

23       A.   Correct.

24       Q.   They were not on his shoulder?

25       A.   No.
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   And while this was going on, Ms. Lopez was across

2   the table from you; is that right?

3       A.   Correct.

4       Q.   There wasn’t anything blocking her view —

5       A.   No.

6       Q.   — of you; is that right?

7       A.   Correct.

8       Q.   How far from you was Ms. Lopez?

9       A.   As far as this table.

10       Q.   So however far this table is, would you estimate

11   about three feet?

12       A.   Three feet.

13       Q.   Okay.  That’s the distance between you and

14   Ms. Lopez at the time that this was going on?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And while this was going on, the student was

17   shaking his head back and forth no and your hands were on

18   the table and not on his shoulder; is that right?

19       A.   Correct.

20       Q.   Okay.  Now, at some point — now, while the

21   student was shaking his head no and your hands were on the

22   table, was the student’s mother in the classroom?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   At some point did she come into the classroom?

25       A.   Yes.
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   And at what point did she come in in relationship

2   to the situation where the student was shaking his head no?

3       A.   Right after.

4       Q.   All right.  Like immediately?

5       A.   Yes.

6       Q.   Okay.  Is there a window in the door that she came

7   in through?

8       A.   Yes.

9       Q.   All right.  What happened when she came in?

10       A.   She said that he was shaking his head no.  That

11   means he’s doing the — and he’s telling you done.  He was

12   doing the done sign, and I said, “Oh, I was just trying to

13   get him to finish this last part.”

14       Q.   Did she say anything else?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Did she ask you, what were you doing, or words to

17   that effect?

18       A.   Not that I recall.

19       Q.   Did you say something along the lines of I don’t

20   know what you’re talking about?

21       A.   She didn’t say anything about — she didn’t say

22   anything about shaking.

23       Q.   Did she say anything at all about what she had

24   seen?

25       A.   Just that he was indicating no and that I needed
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   to listen to his response.

2       Q.   So you didn’t hear her say anything else to you

3   when she was in the classroom?

4       A.   No.

5       Q.   All right.  Did you say to the mother you’ll never

6   be able to prove anything?

7       A.   No, I did not.

8       Q.   Did you write a letter to the parent about her

9   complaint?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Whose idea was that to write the letter?

12       A.   I think it came from the principal and Jean

13   Anthony.

14       Q.   All right.  Let me go back to the classroom.

15            The parent told you that her son was shaking his

16   head to say no and that you should listen to him.

17            Is that a fair summary?

18       A.   Right.

19       Q.   Okay.  What happened after she said that?

20       A.   I don’t remember if she then said that his day was

21   over and she took him home.

22       Q.   Do you remember anything else about what happened

23   in the classroom after she came into the classroom?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Okay.  What happened next with respect to that
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DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   incident and the parent’s complaint?

2       A.   We had a meeting to discuss it with the principal

3   and the director of special ed and the parents and myself,

4   and they brought some other parents with them for — I’m

5   not sure why.

6       Q.   Now, did you understand this meeting to be an

7   emergency IEP?

8       A.   Yes.

9       Q.   And who called the emergency IEP?

10       A.   I don’t know if it was Jean Anthony or not.

11       Q.   When did the emergency IEP happen in relationship

12   to the incident with the boy?

13       A.   I don’t recall.

14       Q.   Was it within a day or two?

15       A.   I really don’t know.

16       Q.   Okay.  All right.  Now, what did the parents say

17   at this emergency IEP?

18       A.   That she looked through the window and saw me

19   shake her son.

20       Q.   Do you remember anything else that she said?

21       A.   I mean that was the bulk of the conversation.

22       Q.   Did she say more than that?

23       A.   I don’t recall.

24       Q.   Okay.  Do you remember the father — was the

25   father present?
87

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Yes.

2       Q.   Did he say anything?

3       A.   He went on and said that this was going to be hard

4   to resolve because it was more of a he said/she said kind

5   of thing.

6       Q.   Do you remember anything else that he said?

7       A.   No.

8       Q.   Do you remember what any of the other parents who

9   were there present said?

10       A.   One spoke and she had a student — a son at the

11   high school and just spoke about children not having

12   someone to speak for them, and the other two didn’t really

13   speak.

14       Q.   The parent who had the student at the high school,

15   do you remember anything else that she said?

16       A.   That some things had happened to her son but I

17   don’t remember what they were and, you know, that parents

18   need to be advocates for their children.

19       Q.   Did any of these parents make any statements that

20   they had any kind of experience with you as a teacher?

21       A.   Two of them had been in my class before.  One had

22   a daughter in my class and the other had come to do work

23   through the high school.  She was in charge of a program

24   that high school special needs students came out to our

25   classroom and volunteered in the classroom.
88

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Do you remember anything that the person with the

2   daughter — who had had a daughter in your class said?

3       A.   I don’t remember.

4       Q.   Do you remember anything that the other parents

5   said?

6       A.   No.

7       Q.   You don’t remember if they made any comments about

8   their experience with you as a teacher?

9       A.   I don’t remember.

10       Q.   Do you remember what Ms. James said?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Do you remember what Ms. Anthony said?

13       A.   During the meeting?

14       Q.   Yes.

15       A.   She led the meeting and just — you know, we

16   couldn’t come to a resolution because they felt that it had

17   happened and, you know, it didn’t happen.  So the meeting

18   ended.

19       Q.   What did you say?

20       A.   About what?

21       Q.   In the meeting.

22       A.   I gave my description of what had happened.

23       Q.   All right.  So now was Ms. Lopez at the meeting?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Did anybody talk to Ms. Lopez?  Do you know if
89

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   anybody —

2       A.   I don’t —

3       Q.   Let me start over again.

4            Do you have any information that anybody talked to

5   Ms. Lopez about the incident?

6       A.   I don’t recall.

7       Q.   Did you talk to Ms. Lopez about the incident?

8       A.   Yes.

9       Q.   And when did you talk to her about the incident?

10       A.   After Mrs. James came to me and said this

11   happened.

12       Q.   And what did Ms. Lopez say?

13       A.   She said she was sitting right there and never saw

14   anything happen.

15       Q.   All right.  Did she say anything about what she

16   saw other than she didn’t see anything?

17       A.   That we were working at the table.  She was

18   working with a student and I was working with that student

19   and we were just working.

20       Q.   Did you ask her what she had observed?

21       A.   Yeah.  She observed me working with the student.

22       Q.   Did she tell you where she saw your hands in

23   relationship to the student’s shoulders?

24       A.   I don’t recall.

25       Q.   Did you ask her?
90

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   I don’t know.

2       Q.   All right.  So when you had the emergency IEP

3   meeting, the parent, the mother, said that she saw you

4   shaking her son by the shoulders; is that correct?

5       A.   Correct.

6       Q.   Can you remember anything else will about how she

7   described what she saw?

8       A.   No.  She just said that she saw me shaking him by

9   the shoulders.

10       Q.   Did she say — use the term “violently,” shaking

11   him violently?

12       A.   Not that I recall.

13       Q.   And you said, no, that didn’t happen, correct?

14       A.   Right.

15       Q.   And at the conclusion of the meeting, the parents

16   expressed their belief that you had shook their son by the

17   shoulders; is that right?

18       A.   Correct.

19       Q.   All right.  Did you have any discussions with Jean

20   Anthony about this complaint?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   How many times?

23       A.   Maybe four or five.

24       Q.   What did she — and when you talked to her, did

25   you give her the description of the incident that you’ve
91

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   given us today?

2       A.   Yes.

3       Q.   Did you give her any additional information?

4       A.   Not that I’m aware of.

5       Q.   What did she say to you about the complaint?

6       A.   She said that we’re behind you and don’t worry

7   about it and, you know, you didn’t do it so you don’t have

8   to worry.

9       Q.   Did they say why — did she say to you why it was

10   that she believed that you didn’t do it?

11       A.   She just said she believed me.

12       Q.   Did the parents say that they were taking their

13   child out of your class?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Do you know where the child ended up being placed?

16       A.   For the remainder of that school year, I am not

17   sure if he was in any program.

18       Q.   Did you tell Ms. James that the student was having

19   a bad day and wouldn’t complete his work?

20       A.   I don’t recall that.

21       Q.   Did he finish the project that he was working on

22   that day?

23       A.   I think he did.

24       Q.   At any point with regard to either of these two

25   incidents, or the two incidents together, did Ms. James
92

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   tell you that they were giving you the benefit of the

2   doubt, that the school would give you the benefit of the

3   doubt?

4       A.   I don’t know if she used those words.

5       Q.   Did she say something along those lines to you?

6       A.   Yes.

7            MR. DAVIS:  Let me object, it might be vague and

8   ambiguous, or it is vague and ambiguous.  But she can go

9   ahead.

10            MR. BOLEY:

11       Q.   Did the mother also complain about an incident

12   involving a fire drill?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And what did you understand her complaint to be?

15       A.   That I was going to be leaving the child by

16   themselves out on the playground.

17       Q.   Do you remember the incident involving the fire

18   drill?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Was it a fire drill or was it the alarm going off?

21       A.   It was a fire drill.

22       Q.   Okay.  At the time you didn’t know whether it was

23   a drill or not?

24       A.   Right.

25       Q.   And you were on the playground with the students?
93

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Correct.

2       Q.   What adults were present?

3       A.   My aides and the parent of that student, and I

4   don’t recall if Connie Forrest was there or not.  I don’t

5   recall.

6       Q.   Was Jean Anthony present?

7       A.   Not that I’m aware of.

8       Q.   Okay.  So the fire drill sounded.  The children

9   are on the playground.

10            There’s how many aides, three aides?

11       A.   Correct.

12       Q.   Okay.  And the aides were Janice Lopez —

13       A.   I think it was Sandy Simmons and Michelle Eakins.

14       Q.   Okay.  And so what happened when the fire drill

15   went off?

16       A.   We started gathering the kids because we needed to

17   go to the blacktop area.  That’s where we all lined up for

18   fire drills with the rest of the school.

19            So we were gathering the children, and I have a

20   rope that has handles on it and we were getting the kids to

21   grab the handles and proceed to go to the blacktop.

22       Q.   And what happened?

23       A.   And this particular student was on the ground

24   crying and didn’t want to come, so I yelled out and said,

25   “Just leave her.  I’ll get her.”
94

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   So then what happened?

2       A.   Then they went ahead and I grabbed her.  I picked

3   her up and had to carry her because she didn’t want to

4   come; she wouldn’t walk.  But I needed to do it because I

5   needed to go on for safety.

6       Q.   All right.  Was this the only student who — did

7   all of the other students go to the rope?

8       A.   Yes.

9       Q.   And so this was the only student who did not?

10       A.   Correct.

11       Q.   And you yelled out the phrase “just leave her”; is

12   that correct?

13       A.   Right.

14            MR. DAVIS:  That was part of what she said.

15            MR. BOLEY:  Well, I understand.

16       Q.   But did you say, “Just leave her”?

17       A.   Yes.

18            MS. LEED:  Misstates testimony.

19            MR. BOLEY:

20       Q.   The words “just leave her” came out of your mouth;

21   is that correct?

22       A.   Along with the words “I’ll get her.”

23       Q.   I understand.

24       A.   Okay.

25       Q.   But your testimony is that in addition to saying
95

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   “Just leave her,” you said, “I will get her”?

2       A.   Correct.

3       Q.   You said those two all in one phrase?

4       A.   I did.

5       Q.   And you yelled this out?

6       A.   I did.

7       Q.   All right.  And you said “I’ll get her” as loudly

8   as you said “just leave her”?

9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Okay.  Do you remember an incident in which you

11   taped a student’s legs to a chair with masking tape?

12       A.   I never taped a student’s legs to a chair.

13       Q.   During what school years was Heidi Vincent your

14   instructional aide?

15       A.   From 2000 to — I don’t know if it was 2006 or

16   2007.  I’m not quite sure.

17       Q.   So there was never an occasion in which you put

18   masking tape on a child’s legs to tape them to a chair?

19       A.   Right.

20       Q.   Has there ever been an occasion where you’ve taped

21   a child’s leg using any other kind of tape?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Okay.  Never an incident in which you used any

24   kind of tape —

25       A.   No.
96

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   — to tape a child’s legs to a chair?

2       A.   No.

3       Q.   Was there ever an incident in which you sat on a

4   student?

5       A.   No.

6       Q.   Did you ever have — was there ever an incident in

7   which you put your leg over a student?

8       A.   Yes, as a joke.

9       Q.   When did that happen?

10       A.   I don’t remember the exact date.  The child was

11   sitting in my rocking chair and I said, “Look out.  I’m

12   going to sit on you if you don’t move,” as a joke, and then

13   I just pretended like I was going to sit, but I never sat.

14       Q.   Did you restrain the child in any way?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   So what school year did this occur in?

17       A.   I really don’t remember.  It was 2006 maybe.

18       Q.   Did you ever tell anybody else about this

19   incident?

20       A.   Not that I recall.

21       Q.   Did you ever talk to Heidi Vincent about this

22   incident?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Did Heidi Vincent ever come and express to you

25   surprise on seeing tape on a child’s leg?
97

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   No.

2       Q.   I want to go back to the ’07-’08 school year.

3       A.   Yes.

4       Q.   During the ’07-’08 school year, did you receive

5   any other complaints of any kind regarding your performance

6   as a teacher other than the two incidents — two complaints

7   we’ve talked about?

8       A.   Not that I’m aware of.

9            MR. DAVIS:  Just let me object as vague and

10   ambiguous.  You can go ahead.

11            THE WITNESS:  Not that I’m aware of.

12            MR. BOLEY:

13       Q.   During that school year were you aware that

14   anybody expressed concerns that you yelled in the

15   classroom?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Did anybody express concerns that you were too

18   loud in the classroom?

19       A.   Not that I’m aware of.

20       Q.   Did anybody express concerns about your physical

21   interaction with students?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   I want to talk about the ’09-2010 school year.

24   Okay?

25       A.   Okay.
98

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   During that school year did you ever raise your

2   voice at a student?

3       A.   No.

4       Q.   Did you ever raise your voice at an aide?

5       A.   No.

6       Q.   Did you ever raise your voice after a student or

7   aide did not follow your initial instruction?

8       A.   I might have on occasion.

9       Q.   Can you give me an example of an occasion where

10   you might have raised your voice after a student or an aide

11   did not follow your initial instruction?

12       A.   I might have said it just a little louder.

13       Q.   Did you ever say “shut up” to students?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Did you ever swear at students?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Did you ever swear in class?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Did you ever refer to students as a son of a

20   bitch?  That’s a question.

21       A.   Refer to who?

22       Q.   Any student as a son of a bitch.

23       A.   I might have in talking to my aides.

24       Q.   Did you ever — how many times did you refer to a

25   student as a son of a bitch in speaking to aides?
99

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Maybe twice.

2       Q.   Did you ever say that in reference to J.P.?

3       A.   Not that I recall.

4       Q.   Were students in the classroom when you referred

5   to a student as a son of a bitch when you were speaking to

6   aides?

7       A.   No.

8       Q.   When did these statements occur?

9       A.   After class.

10       Q.   Did you ever refer to a student as a little shit?

11       A.   I might have.

12       Q.   In what circumstance?

13       A.   Just in a teasing way.

14       Q.   And to whom did you make those comments?

15       A.   To my aides.

16       Q.   Did you ever make that comment referring to a

17   student as a little shit in the presence of students?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Did you ever hear Janice Lopez refer to

20   students — or strike that.

21            Did you ever hear Janice Lopez swear in the

22   classroom?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Did you ever hear her refer to students as a son

25   of a bitch?
100

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   No.

2       Q.   Did you ever hear her refer to students as a

3   little shit?

4       A.   Yes.

5       Q.   How many times did you hear that?

6       A.   A couple.

7       Q.   And were these times when students were present?

8       A.   No.

9       Q.   So these were comments that she made about

10   students in conversations with you?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Were other people present when she made those

13   comments?

14       A.   I don’t recall.

15       Q.   Were you ever told by anyone at the school that

16   your verbal interactions with students were inappropriate?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Did anybody at the school ever suggest to you that

19   the teaching techniques that you were using were improper?

20            MS. LEED:  Vague and ambiguous as to time.

21            MR. BOLEY:

22       Q.   At any time did anybody at school ever suggest to

23   you that the teaching techniques you were using were

24   improper?

25       A.   No.
101

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   Did you ever hear suggestions from anybody that

2   you change the manner in which you interacted with students

3   verbally?

4       A.   Not change the manner but gave me lesson ideas.

5       Q.   What kind of lesson ideas?

6       A.   Just in different ways to teach a lesson.

7       Q.   Can you give me an example?

8       A.   Working on transitions with children using

9   different methods like standing up and clapping your hands

10   and touching your toes, playing Simon Says, things like

11   that to go on to the next activity.

12       Q.   Well, what sorts of things were you doing that

13   they were suggesting that you could be replacing these

14   techniques with?

15       A.   I wasn’t doing anything that was inappropriate.  I

16   was just asking for more ideas and they gave them to me.

17       Q.   Well, why was it that they suggested to you a

18   change in the way that you did transitions with students?

19            MR. DAVIS:  Let me object as calling for

20   speculation.  She can go ahead.

21            THE WITNESS:  I think we shared ideas, everybody

22   did, and just what worked and what doesn’t work with

23   certain lessons.

24            MR. BOLEY:

25       Q.   Well, did you ever direct a child to where you
102

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   wanted them to go by using your hands?

2       A.   I guided a child.

3       Q.   When you say you guided a child, I mean is that —

4   you did that once?

5       A.   No.  I’ve done it more than once.

6       Q.   Is that something you did routinely?

7       A.   Sometimes.

8       Q.   And when you say you guided — when you guide a

9   child using your hands, how would you do that?

10       A.   Put your hand behind their back.

11       Q.   And guide them in the direction you want them to

12   go?

13       A.   Right.

14       Q.   Did you ever shove a child?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Did you ever, when you were directing a child to

17   where you wanted them to go, grab their arms?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Did you ever push them into a chair?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Did you ever use your hands to direct a child into

22   a chair?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   So if you wanted a child to get into a chair, what

25   would you do?
103

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Ask them to get into the chair.

2       Q.   And what if they didn’t?

3       A.   Then probably guide them to the chair.

4       Q.   With your hand?

5       A.   With my hand, yeah.

6       Q.   So you would guide them into the chair using your

7   hand?

8       A.   Right.

9       Q.   Did anybody ever at the school suggest to you that

10   that technique that you were using was improper?

11       A.   Not that I recall.

12       Q.   Were you ever told by anybody, and this is at any

13   time, that — take a step back.

14            Did anybody at the school prior to the incident,

15   the kicking incident involving J.P., tell you or suggest to

16   you that your classroom management techniques were

17   improper?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Did you ever receive suggestions for changes in

20   how you manage the classroom prior to the kicking incident

21   with J.P.?

22       A.   No, not really, just — I mean, we’d get

23   suggestions.  Everybody gets suggestions.

24       Q.   Do you remember receiving suggestions about how to

25   change how you manage the classroom?
104

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   I think my scheduling, just changing some

2   scheduling and things like that, if that’s what you’re

3   referring to.

4       Q.   But I’m talking about in terms of how you manage

5   the students in getting them to get involved in activities.

6   Were there ever suggestions in terms of that?

7       A.   Not that I recall.

8       Q.   Okay.  Did you ever speak to Samantha Sheldon

9   about suggestions for changes in classroom management?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And what did she talk to you about?

12       A.   Just on working with the kids, that — can you

13   repeat that again?

14       Q.   Did you ever speak to Samantha Sheldon about

15   suggestions for changes in the management of your

16   classroom?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And what suggestions did she make to you?

19       A.   Suggestions on doing a different schedule,

20   possibly shorter times within the classroom working with

21   certain students on — you know, because their attention

22   span maybe wasn’t as long, things along those lines.

23       Q.   Do you remember anything else?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Did you adopt those changes?
105

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   I tried to, yes.

2       Q.   Do you remember talking to Jenny Diaz about

3   suggestions for changes in classroom management?

4       A.   No, I don’t recall.

5       Q.   Do you remember speaking to Katie Taylor about

6   changes in classroom management?

7       A.   No.

8       Q.   When Connie Forrest was the coordinator of special

9   education, would you ever meet with her about the

10   classroom?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   How often would you meet with her?

13       A.   Oh, within like a year’s span you mean?

14       Q.   Yes.

15       A.   Probably maybe between seven and ten times.

16       Q.   Do you remember any suggestions she had for you

17   for changes in the classroom or in educational technique

18   during the time she was coordinator?

19       A.   No, I don’t recall that.

20       Q.   Now, at some point she became a — she returned to

21   the role of a teacher, right?

22       A.   Correct.

23       Q.   And Jean Anthony was the director of special

24   education?

25       A.   Correct.
106

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   And after she assumed that role, how often did you

2   meet with her?

3       A.   With Jean Anthony?

4       Q.   Yes.

5       A.   Probably about maybe five to seven times.

6       Q.   A year?

7       A.   Right.

8       Q.   And do you remember any suggestions that she had

9   for you?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   I mean did she have any suggestions that you

12   remember?

13       A.   Not that I recall.

14       Q.   Did she ever express to you any concerns about the

15   tone of voice that you were using in interacting with

16   students?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Did she ever express to you any concerns about the

19   manner in which you were interacting with students

20   physically?

21       A.   Not that I recall.

22       Q.   When Margo Olson was the director of special

23   education, did you meet with her approximately the same

24   schedule, five to seven times a year?

25       A.   Yes, yes, yes.
107

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   And did she ever have suggestions for you to

2   change the manner in which you led the classroom —

3       A.   No.

4       Q.   — during the period prior to the incident with

5   J.P.?

6       A.   No.

7       Q.   And did she ever express to you any concerns that

8   you or she had about the manner in which you spoke to

9   students and aides?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Any concerns or criticisms about your physical

12   interactions with students?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Do you remember Jasmine Altman?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And what was her position?

17       A.   School psychologist.

18       Q.   Did you ever work with her in your classroom?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And did Jasmine ever express any concerns about

21   the manner in which you were conducting your classroom?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   George Loftis, was he also a psychologist?

24       A.   Correct.

25       Q.   Did he ever express any concerns with you about
108

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   the manner in which you were conducting your classroom?

2       A.   No.

3       Q.   Now, in the 2009-2010 school year —

4       A.   Um-hum.

5       Q.   — did Stacy Carpenetti work as an instructional

6   aide the entire year?

7       A.   I don’t know if it was the entire year.  I think

8   she got hired — I’m not quite sure, maybe October or

9   something.  I’m not quite sure.  But I don’t think it was

10   the full year.

11       Q.   But certainly through the spring?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And Janice Lopez, was she assigned to the special

14   day class throughout the entire year?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And Kelly Knapp?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Were there any other adults who worked in the

19   classroom on a regular basis?

20       A.   The speech and language teacher.

21       Q.   And how often would the speech and language

22   teacher come to the classroom?

23       A.   Twice a week.

24       Q.   And who was that?

25       A.   I think it was Jenny Diaz at the time.
109

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   And Heidi Vincent was Jenny Diaz’s aide; is that

2   correct?

3       A.   Correct.

4       Q.   Would she come to the classroom?

5       A.   To get students, yeah.

6       Q.   Would she ever spend any time in the classroom?

7       A.   Oh, short times, yeah.

8       Q.   How about Samantha Sheldon?

9       A.   Yes.  Samantha came in because she pulled a group

10   of students and did social skills with them.

11       Q.   And when you say she pulled a group of students —

12       A.   She brought them back to her office to a

13   classroom, or maybe it was with — she did it with Jenny

14   Diaz, that’s right, and they would go back to Jenny’s

15   classroom.

16       Q.   Did she ever spend any time in the classroom on a

17   regular basis?

18       A.   She’d come in and hang out for a while, yes.

19       Q.   Are there any other adults who spent time in the

20   classroom during the 2009-2010 school year?

21       A.   I don’t remember anymore.  There might have been.

22   I don’t recall.

23       Q.   Were there any — do you remember J.P.’s mother?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Would you see her?
110

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Yes.

2       Q.   Was she ever in the classroom?

3       A.   I mean she’d come to drop him off in the morning.

4       Q.   Other than dropping him off in the morning, would

5   she spend any time in the classroom?

6       A.   Sometimes she stayed and just would talk a little

7   bit.

8       Q.   How frequently would she do that?

9       A.   Maybe once or twice a week.

10       Q.   And how long would she stay in the classroom when

11   she did that?

12       A.   Maybe ten or fifteen minutes.

13       Q.   What about J.P.’s dad?  Did you ever see him?

14       A.   Yes, on occasion.

15       Q.   And when would you see him?

16       A.   When it was his turn to have J.P.

17       Q.   And when it was his turn to have J.P., when would

18   you see him?  Under what circumstances would you see him?

19       A.   Well, because of transportation, he’d come and

20   pick him up.

21       Q.   Right.  So J.P.’s dad would come and pick him up

22   after school?

23       A.   Right.

24       Q.   Okay.  All right.  Now, did — and again, this is

25   prior to the kicking incident with J.P.
111

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1            Did any of the aides ever express the opinion that

2   you were not involved in class time?

3            MR. DAVIS:  Just let me object as calling for

4   speculation.  She can go ahead.

5            MR. BOLEY:

6       Q.   Did any of the aides ever tell you that they felt

7   that you were not involved in class planning?

8       A.   Not that I’m aware of.

9       Q.   Did Janice Lopez ever express to you her feeling

10   that you were not involved in class planning?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Who did the lesson planning for the class in

13   2009-2010?

14       A.   I did and Connie Forrest.  We lesson planned

15   together.

16       Q.   Did any of the aides do any of the class planning?

17       A.   They did the preparation.

18       Q.   What do you mean by the preparation?

19       A.   If there was projects that we worked on, they

20   would prep, get the stuff cut out, you know, tracing

21   various parts to let’s say an owl or something, an owl

22   puppet we made, things like that.

23       Q.   Would any of the aides actually develop the lesson

24   plan?

25       A.   No.
112

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       Q.   That never happened?

2       A.   No.

3       Q.   Did you ever play Solitaire at work?

4       A.   Occasionally.

5       Q.   When you say occasionally, how often would you do

6   that?

7       A.   A couple of times I probably did it.

8       Q.   A couple of times during the year?

9       A.   No, in a month’s time maybe.

10       Q.   And for how long would you play Solitaire at a

11   time when you played Solitaire in the classroom?

12       A.   Oh, maybe just a few minutes.

13       Q.   When you say a few minutes —

14       A.   Three to five minutes.

15       Q.   Did you ever pay bills on the computer when you

16   were in the classroom?

17       A.   After school.

18       Q.   Did you ever pay bills on the school computer

19   during class time?

20       A.   No.  I write all my bills.  I don’t have any that

21   are on the computer.

22       Q.   Okay.  Did you ever tell anybody that you were

23   paying bills?

24       A.   Not that I recall.

25       Q.   When you — the computer that you use in the
113

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   classroom, was that connected to some kind of network?

2       A.   To the school network, to the district, yeah.

3       Q.   And in the morning would you log in?

4       A.   Yes.

5       Q.   Is that the first thing you did?

6       A.   No.

7       Q.   What’s the first thing you did when you got in the

8   classroom?

9       A.   Turned on the lights, started looking around to

10   see what needed to be done.

11       Q.   And then at what point would you log into the

12   computer?

13       A.   I don’t know.  It depends.  Ten or fifteen minutes

14   after I was there.

15       Q.   Were you ever late to work?

16       A.   On occasion.

17       Q.   How often?

18       A.   Maybe a couple of times a month.

19       Q.   No more than that?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Did you participate in IEP meetings?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Did anybody — and this is like at any point prior

24   to the kicking incident involving J.P.

25            Did anybody ever complain to you that you were not
114

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   prepared for the IEP meeting?

2       A.   Not that I recall.

3       Q.   When there was an IEP meeting, what was your

4   responsibility in an IEP meeting?

5       A.   Developing goals for the student and reporting out

6   on how they had been doing in the classroom.

7       Q.   And that’s the role you performed in these IEP

8   meetings?

9       A.   Correct.

10       Q.   And nobody ever expressed any opinion that you

11   were not prepared for the role that you had in those

12   meetings?

13       A.   Not that I’m aware of.

14       Q.   Okay.  Now, how often did you receive evaluations

15   by the school?

16       A.   There was years that I didn’t get evaluated and

17   then there was years that I did, so it was periodically.  I

18   mean it was like every couple of years or every year.

19       Q.   What was your understanding of how often you were

20   supposed to be evaluated?

21       A.   Well, it was supposed to be every year.

22       Q.   Do you know why it was that you were not evaluated

23   every year?

24       A.   I believe that it came down to who was the one

25   that was supposed to evaluate me, was it the principal or
115

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   was it the director of special ed, and there was

2   controversy between the two of them about that.

3       Q.   When did this controversy about who was supposed

4   to evaluate you start?

5       A.   When I was at Loma Vista.

6       Q.   And this controversy was between Lauri James —

7       A.   And Connie Forrest at the time.

8       Q.   Okay.  And did each of them believe that you were

9   supposed to be evaluated by them?

10            MR. DAVIS:  I’m going to object, calls for

11   speculation.  She can go ahead though.

12            THE WITNESS:  I think it was a matter of who was

13   supposed to do it.

14            MR. BOLEY:

15       Q.   Okay.  Who did you talk to about this controversy?

16       A.   I don’t really — I didn’t really talk to anybody.

17   I just wondered why — you know, why I never got evaluated

18   and then I — then it came — it was brought up that they

19   didn’t know who was supposed to be evaluating me.

20       Q.   Well, you said earlier there was a controversy.

21       A.   Right.  I guess they didn’t know which person was

22   supposed to do it.

23       Q.   So did Connie Forrest ever evaluate you?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Do you know what years she — year or years she —
116

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   No, I don’t.

2            MR. DAVIS:  Wait until he’s done.

3            THE WITNESS:  Okay.

4            MR. BOLEY:

5       Q.   Okay.  Do you know what year or years she

6   evaluated you in?

7       A.   I don’t remember.

8       Q.   Did she evaluate you more than once?

9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   What’s your estimate of the number of times she

11   evaluated you?

12       A.   Probably five times.

13       Q.   And after Connie Forrest — let me take a step

14   back.

15            How was it that you learned that there was some

16   question about who was supposed to evaluate you?

17       A.   When it becomes — at the beginning of the year if

18   you’re on the schedule to be evaluated, because it’s not

19   every year.  It’s every two years, I think, or every

20   year — every other year.  And then it was kind of like,

21   well, who’s supposed to be doing that and so — then that’s

22   when it came up.

23       Q.   So did this come up more than once?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Okay.  So the question of who it was who was
117

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   supposed to evaluate you, Ms. Forrest or Ms. James, it only

2   happened once?

3       A.   Right.  And then from then on Ms. James did it.

4       Q.   Okay.  How many times did Ms. James evaluate you?

5       A.   I don’t know.  Maybe four times, five.

6       Q.   Do you have copies of those evaluations?

7       A.   I’d have to go back, but I think I do.

8       Q.   Did Connie Forrest ever give you an evaluation

9   that had, you know, an unfavorable finding of any kind?

10       A.   No.

11            MR. DAVIS:  Just let me object that might be vague

12   and ambiguous.  She can go ahead.

13            THE WITNESS:  No.

14            MR. BOLEY:

15       Q.   Did Lauri James ever give you an evaluation that

16   contained an unfavorable finding of any kind?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Now, the 2009-2010 school year, were you due to be

19   evaluated?

20       A.   I don’t recall.

21       Q.   Do you remember having any discussion with

22   Ms. James about your evaluation for that school year?

23       A.   I don’t remember.

24       Q.   Do you remember any discussion with Ms. James

25   where you agreed that you would be put on a five-year
118

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   evaluation schedule?

2       A.   That happened after the incident.

3       Q.   Before the incident did you have any kind of

4   discussion of any kind with Ms. James about going on a

5   five-year evaluation schedule?

6       A.   Not that I recall.

7       Q.   During the 2009-2010 school year, did Ms. James

8   ever come into the classroom?

9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   How often?

11       A.   Maybe three or four times.

12       Q.   In the school year?

13       A.   Right.

14       Q.   And during those times, how long did she stay?

15       A.   It depended.  Maybe ten, fifteen minutes.

16       Q.   And did she ever do any kind of formal observation

17   of the kind that is done for purposes of evaluation during

18   the 2009-2010 school year?

19            MS. LEED:  Calls for speculation.

20            THE WITNESS:  I don’t recall if it was that year.

21   I mean she had done it, but I don’t know if it was that

22   year.

23            MR. BOLEY:

24       Q.   So you’ve gone through a process of observation

25   for purposes of an evaluation by Ms. James, right?
119

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   Correct.

2       Q.   Okay.  So you’re familiar with how that goes?

3       A.   Right.

4       Q.   And your testimony is you can’t remember whether

5   or not any of those observations occurred during the

6   2009-2010 school year?

7       A.   Right.  I don’t know if it was that year or the

8   year before.

9       Q.   All right.  How was it that there was a discussion

10   about a five-year waiver, or putting you on a five-year

11   observation schedule after the incident with J.P.?

12       A.   I don’t know.  It was the day that we were going

13   over a lot of stuff after the incident happened and then

14   they brought that paper out and asked me to sign it.

15       Q.   What did they tell you about the paper?

16       A.   It just said that it was a five-year — I don’t

17   know if the word is contract, about being evaluated.

18       Q.   Did they give you a choice as to whether or not

19   you were to sign the waiver?

20       A.   They didn’t say you can sign it or you can’t.

21   They didn’t say that.

22       Q.   What did they tell you about the reasons for

23   signing the waiver?

24       A.   I don’t really recall.

25            MS. LEED:  I’m sorry.  Can you tell me who the
120

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   they was?  Mr. Boley, I’m sorry.  I just didn’t hear on the

2   record who the they was.

3            MR. BOLEY:  Oh, right.  That’s a good point.

4       Q.   When you were in this meeting about the discussion

5   about the five-year plan, who were you meeting with?

6       A.   Lauri James and Margaret Kruse.

7       Q.   Now, at some point did you receive a letter of

8   unprofessional conduct?

9       A.   That day.

10       Q.   So that was the day we’re talking about?

11       A.   Correct.

12       Q.   And that letter was handed to you personally?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   All right.  So in this meeting you received the

15   letter; is that right?

16       A.   Correct.

17       Q.   And in the same meeting they presented this

18   agreement for a five-year evaluation plan; is that right?

19       A.   Correct.

20       Q.   And you signed it at that time?

21       A.   I did.

22            MR. BOLEY:  I think this is a good point for a

23   break.

24            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We’re off the record.  It’s

25   2:05.
121

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1            (Recess taken.)

2            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We’re back on the record at

3   2:18 and here marks the end of tape two in the deposition

4   for Dina Holder and we are off the record at 2:18.

5            (Recess taken.)

6            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Here marks the beginning of

7   tape three in the deposition for Dina Holder.  We’re back

8   on the record.  It’s 2:24.

9            MR. BOLEY:

10       Q.   Have you ever been convicted of a felony before?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Have you ever been arrested?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Are there any — were any criminal complaints

15   filed against you in 2011 in Contra Costa County?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Yes.  Go ahead.

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And what did that complaint involve?

20       A.   What we’re talking about today.

21       Q.   In 2011 was there any other complaint filed

22   against you in criminal court in Contra Costa County?

23       A.   Not that I’m aware.

24       Q.   Were any criminal complaints filed against you in

25   2009?
122

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1       A.   No.

2       Q.   In 2006?

3       A.   No.

4       Q.   In 1990?

5       A.   No.

6       Q.   Okay.  So you’re not aware of any criminal

7   complaint being filed against you in Contra Costa County

8   other than the one arising out of the incident with J.P.;

9   is that correct?

10       A.   Correct.

11            MR. BOLEY:  All right.  I’d like to designate the

12   rest of the transcript as confidential.

13            (The remainder of the transcript is deemed

14            confidential and is bound under separate cover.)

15                             –oOo–

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25       DATE                             DINA HOLDER
123

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1   STATE OF CALIFORNIA.)

2                          )      ss.

3   COUNTY OF CONTRA COSTA )

4

5          I, JANELL SOKOL, CSR, License No. CSR 3443, State of

6   California, do certify:

7          That DINA HOLDER, the witness in the foregoing

8   deposition, was by me first duly sworn to testify the

9   truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in the

10   within-entitled cause;

11          That said deposition was reported at the time and

12   place therein stated by me, a Certified Shorthand Reporter,

13   and thereafter transcribed into typewriting;

14          I further certify that I am not interested in the

15   outcome of said action, nor connected with, nor related to,

16   any of the parties of said action or to their respective

17   counsel.

18                  IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

19                  my hand this     day of December, 2012.

20

21                  JANELL SOKOL, CSR, CRR

22                  License No. 3443, State of California.

23

24

25
124

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

1               DIABLO VALLEY REPORTING SERVICES
Certified Shorthand Reporters
2              2121 N. California Blvd., Suite 210
Walnut Creek, California 94596
3                         (925) 930-7388

4   December 13, 2012

5   DINA HOLDER
c/o MARK E. DAVIS, ESQ.
6   1960 The Alameda, Suite 210
San Jose, California 95126
7
RE:  PHELAN vs. HOLDER
8

9   DEAR MS. HOLDER:

10       This is to inform you that your deposition conducted on
Tuesday, December 4, 2012, has been transcribed into
11   booklet form.

12       You have the right to review and sign the transcript of
your testimony to ensure that it is true and correct.  If
13   you wish to avail yourself of this opportunity, the
original transcript of your deposition shall be held in our
14   offices for your review for not more than 30 days or until
requested for trial.  If you choose to come to our office,
15   it would be best to call our office before your arrival so
that the transcript can be readily available.
16
If you do not sign your deposition, please be advised
17   that it may be used at the time of trial with the same
force and effect as though it had been signed.
18
If you should have any questions regarding this matter,
19   please do telephone our staff to assist you.

20   Sincerely Yours,

21

22   JANELL SOKOL, CSR, CRR

23

24   CC:    All Counsel

25
0

DEPOSITION OF DINA HOLDER – 12/4/12

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6 Responses »

  1. So Ms. Holder is calling it a “nudge” while the papers are calling it a “kick”. Nice reporting out there.

  2. If I am the parents I would have sued as well after reading this. During her conversation, she didn’t even tell them about the kick? Only told them the child had a rough day. WOW!

  3. Other witnesses called it a kick am I correct? I find this whole thing difficult. Several people have written to the editor of the Times what a wonderful person Ms Holder was. That is probably true but other things have apparently happened also and there was a breaking point. Was she or wasn’t she accredited to teach special education?

    • She had a credential to teach special education, but not an autism “certificate”. Although she didn’t need it until 2013 (or 2012 I believe), there was a “grace period” under the law, so technically she properly accredited. Although, some districts required teachers teaching children with autism to get the certificate. This is my understanding, I could be wrong, and I can’t currently cite my source.

  4. Unacceptable!!! The laws need to be changed immediately. The Times did a nice recap of this, but the transcript really does give you real insight to how things went down. Thanks for posting this.

  5. I hope the teacher gets what she deserves.

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